Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Manveru Taurënér]

I don't think we need any more naturally-occurring metals; adding five hundred instances of the same only not and calling it depth is something that bother me in many of the larger mods, but I would like to see 'crafted' materials forged from the souls of tormented orphans and rainbows and such when the whole different planes and metaphysical stuff gets implemented, sort of like how you forge Daedric gear in Skyrim from demon-sauce and regular materials, as well as things like the magical superwood elves as described as using in Threetoe's stories.

daedra ain't demons

also, yeah, supernatural materials made from supernatural creatures... hmm. That's good.

Well, whether daedra are demons or not is mostly a matter of semantics. While they are a bit more diverse in scope, most demon tropes in existence are covered by one version or another. IIRC they're even called demons sometimes in-game, although it was explained as a mistranslation of the word dremora.

Having supernatural materials crafted through elaborate rituals like daedric armor was supposed to be made pre-skyrim would be pretty awesome nonetheless. Off the top of my head it involved careful preparations, specific lunar positions and came with some serious risk. Forcing the soul of a powerful daedra into molten ebony to craft some armor when the daedra most certainly doesn't want to be turned into a pair of boots, what could possibly go wrong

[Putnam]

That was just black soul gems, I'm pretty sure.

EDIT: Also, Aedra are way more taken to taking souls than the Daedra (not counting the Ideal Masters) are.

[Cobbler89]

Or how about orichalcum, a metal talked about in platos first book of Atlantis, where its said to be a good armor or a metal of high value.

It's an alloy of gold and copper, isn't it? Or possibly the same thing as electrum. I don't think it's exactly "weapon's grade".

Their is a copper alloy called orichalcum that was used to make some low value coins.
their was also a metal in clasical mythology with the same name. i can find references to it as armour (like Aneases's shield ) but i can't find any weapons made from it.
it could be a nice addition.

I believe in Final Fantasy games orichalcum weapons typically have unusual effects (like, unusual even for FF) such as draining an enemy's HP (to restore the HP of the wielder). Not sure where they got that from though (I guess it might be DnD, wouldn't be the first classical mythology thing that FF borrowed the DnD spin on).

[Manveru Taurënér]

That was just black soul gems, I'm pretty sure.

EDIT: Also, Aedra are way more taken to taking souls than the Daedra (not counting the Ideal Masters) are.

Black soul gems didn't even exist yet in the lore back then, but either way all that has been retconned out by now to make the process easier to implement in the game.

Not sure if I'd agree that Aedra are more of the soulsnatching type though, although that depends on the daedra in question I guess. Some of them at least seem to do nothing more than ensnaring mortals either through deals, curses, soul trapping or binding them to their spheres (like Sheo driving people mad and then bringing them to the Shivering Isles).

[Putnam]

While the Aedra do the exact same through mass organized religion for the exact same purpose.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Is it for the same purpose really? Can't say I've dug that far into Aedric lore, mostly because there isn't anywhere near as much info on them as on the Daedra. Afaik they want followers more due the worship giving the strength/maintaining them (also possibly changing them based on the beliefs of their worshippers), whereas the Daedra are mostly just bored or indulging their sadistic tendencies.

(Hope no one minds all the off-topicness )

[Alestance]

According to modern metallurgic processes, Some metals when alloyed with Antimony and Arsenic, can produce a very strong alloy, both in hardness and tensile strength. Some people have speculated that Arsenical Bronze, or Arsenic Antimony Bronze is the real world basis for Tolkien's Mithril. Incidentally Tetrahedrite is an ore of Copper and Antimony. Tennanite happens to be an ore of Copper and Arsenic.
Some bronze-age weapons were actually Copper/Arsenic alloys, and they were much stronger than the Copper/Tin variant, and they held much better to the test of time than tin bronze. Plato probably referred to this alloy when he was talking about Orichalcum(Which translates to "Mountain Copper, or Mountain Metal"). A reason why this might be the case is Haephestus, and how he is portrayed as lame. Arsenic poisoning can attribute to such.
Ideally you can add Tennanite as a rarer copper ore that appears only in mountain areas and, when smelted and alloyed with Tetrahedrite, produces another steel-grade or better metal, be it called Orichalcum or Mithril or even Onolgusil. Just as a way for those whom can't find iron and/or flux can have an alternative to steel.
When diseases are added to the game, smiths who produce this new metal can, over time, gain the effects of arsenic poisoning and eventually will need crutches. Eventually they'll die of arsenic poisoning, but such is the price of producing Onolgusil.

[Dirst]

According to modern metallurgic processes, Some metals when alloyed with Antimony and Arsenic, can produce a very strong alloy, both in hardness and tensile strength. Some people have speculated that Arsenical Bronze, or Arsenic Antimony Bronze is the real world basis for Tolkien's Mithril. Incidentally Tetrahedrite is an ore of Copper and Antimony. Tennanite happens to be an ore of Copper and Arsenic.
Some bronze-age weapons were actually Copper/Arsenic alloys, and they were much stronger than the Copper/Tin variant, and they held much better to the test of time than tin bronze. Plato probably referred to this alloy when he was talking about Orichalcum(Which translates to "Mountain Copper, or Mountain Metal"). A reason why this might be the case is Haephestus, and how he is portrayed as lame. Arsenic poisoning can attribute to such.
Ideally you can add Tennanite as a rarer copper ore that appears only in mountain areas and, when smelted and alloyed with Tetrahedrite, produces another steel-grade or better metal, be it called Orichalcum or Mithril or even Onolgusil. Just as a way for those whom can't find iron and/or flux can have an alternative to steel.
When diseases are added to the game, smiths who produce this new metal can, over time, gain the effects of arsenic poisoning and eventually will need crutches. Eventually they'll die of arsenic poisoning, but such is the price of producing Onolgusil.

To my knowledge, minerals can't be restricted to biomes.  You could specify that the mineral Tennanite appears in igneous intrusive layers which would tend towards mountains but not be exclusive.  Smelting it could produce 4 bars of Copper and 0-4 bars of Arsenic.

Within the vanilla game, Orpiment and Realgar can reasonably be used as "Arsenic ore" but they only appear in igneous extrusive layers.  Since Tetrahedrite appears in ALL layer stones and Native Copper appears in igneous extrusive, there's a good chance that a player would be able to find Copper and Arsenic in those environments.

The remaining bit is making a reaction that takes some Copper and some Arsenic to produce Orichalcum, perhaps with an optional variant to use Tennanite directly (analogous to making Billon from Tetrahedrite).    If the smelting reactions also create some Arsenic contamination (not sure how to arrange this, but it would result in a chance for "a dusting of arsenic" at the workshop), a contact syndrome within the Arsenic raws could simulate arsenic poisoning.

[Dorf and Dumb]

If the smelting reactions also create some Arsenic contamination (not sure how to arrange this, but it would result in a chance for "a dusting of arsenic" at the workshop), a contact syndrome within the Arsenic raws could simulate arsenic poisoning.

Are you kidding?  Next thing you'll be telling me dorfs that a bedroom dug and smoothed out of raw realgar or galena has been determined to be harmful by the State of California.  That's not right.  Objecting to food with a "dusting of arsenic" sounds like the kind of asinine made-up excuse for cancelling trading or starting a war that the Elves would think of.

[Dyret]

I don't think we need any more naturally-occurring metals; adding five hundred instances of the same only not and calling it depth is something that bother me in many of the larger mods, but I would like to see 'crafted' materials forged from the souls of tormented orphans and rainbows and such when the whole different planes and metaphysical stuff gets implemented, sort of like how you forge Daedric gear in Skyrim from demon-sauce and regular materials, as well as things like the magical superwood elves as described as using in Threetoe's stories.

daedra ain't demons

also, yeah, supernatural materials made from supernatural creatures... hmm. That's good.

Yeah, I know, but a lot of them end up filling a lot of the generic fantasy niches.

Also I was thinking more along the line of infusing materials with 'essence' that probably ties back into spheres somehow, but yeah, parts of magical creatures seem like they could be one way of getting access to that.

[Alestance]

To my knowledge, minerals can't be restricted to biomes.  You could specify that the mineral Tennanite appears in igneous intrusive layers which would tend towards mountains but not be exclusive.  Smelting it could produce 4 bars of Copper and 0-4 bars of Arsenic.

Within the vanilla game, Orpiment and Realgar can reasonably be used as "Arsenic ore" but they only appear in igneous extrusive layers.  Since Tetrahedrite appears in ALL layer stones and Native Copper appears in igneous extrusive, there's a good chance that a player would be able to find Copper and Arsenic in those environments.

The remaining bit is making a reaction that takes some Copper and some Arsenic to produce Orichalcum, perhaps with an optional variant to use Tennanite directly (analogous to making Billon from Tetrahedrite).    If the smelting reactions also create some Arsenic contamination (not sure how to arrange this, but it would result in a chance for "a dusting of arsenic" at the workshop), a contact syndrome within the Arsenic raws could simulate arsenic poisoning.

Ah, but my intended Orichalcum was to also use a bit of Antimony, but after looking into it some more, Antimony seems to be used to alloy with tin to increase it's strength, therefore tin probably also needs to be involved in the production. Antimony Copper alloy seemed to only exist for decoratory purposes in ancient times. So a slight error on my researching skills.

Either way, the alloy would require Copper, Arsenic, Antimony, and Tin. It should also only be made in a very specific way due to the nature of the way Arsenical bronze was made a long time ago - The smiths who produced Arsenic Bronze didn't actually know what the impurity was that made copper tougher, and, as such, the Mithril/Orichalcum/Onogusil/whatever metal should be made only with the specific ores, and not with already existing bars. The Dwarves, even in their infinitely vast knowledge of metallurgy, still shouldn't know exactlywhy this specific collection of stones produces such a useful metal, it may just be a blessing by Armok to them.

Chemically, Arsenic ends up either bonding with Oxygen in the process of smelting the ore, which makes copper metal come out less impure, or it alloys with Copper making a more oxydization resistent bronze, so it wouldn't make much sense to have arsenic bars anyway.

It should also be noted that Arsenic can be alloyed with Lead to make it stronger.

[Dirst]

To my knowledge, minerals can't be restricted to biomes.  You could specify that the mineral Tennanite appears in igneous intrusive layers which would tend towards mountains but not be exclusive.  Smelting it could produce 4 bars of Copper and 0-4 bars of Arsenic.

Within the vanilla game, Orpiment and Realgar can reasonably be used as "Arsenic ore" but they only appear in igneous extrusive layers.  Since Tetrahedrite appears in ALL layer stones and Native Copper appears in igneous extrusive, there's a good chance that a player would be able to find Copper and Arsenic in those environments.

The remaining bit is making a reaction that takes some Copper and some Arsenic to produce Orichalcum, perhaps with an optional variant to use Tennanite directly (analogous to making Billon from Tetrahedrite).    If the smelting reactions also create some Arsenic contamination (not sure how to arrange this, but it would result in a chance for "a dusting of arsenic" at the workshop), a contact syndrome within the Arsenic raws could simulate arsenic poisoning.

Ah, but my intended Orichalcum was to also use a bit of Antimony, but after looking into it some more, Antimony seems to be used to alloy with tin to increase it's strength, therefore tin probably also needs to be involved in the production. Antimony Copper alloy seemed to only exist for decoratory purposes in ancient times. So a slight error on my researching skills.

Either way, the alloy would require Copper, Arsenic, Antimony, and Tin. It should also only be made in a very specific way due to the nature of the way Arsenical bronze was made a long time ago - The smiths who produced Arsenic Bronze didn't actually know what the impurity was that made copper tougher, and, as such, the Mithril/Orichalcum/Onogusil/whatever metal should be made only with the specific ores, and not with already existing bars. The Dwarves, even in their infinitely vast knowledge of metallurgy, still shouldn't know exactlywhy this specific collection of stones produces such a useful metal, it may just be a blessing by Armok to them.

Chemically, Arsenic ends up either bonding with Oxygen in the process of smelting the ore, which makes copper metal come out less impure, or it alloys with Copper making a more oxydization resistent bronze, so it wouldn't make much sense to have arsenic bars anyway.

It should also be noted that Arsenic can be alloyed with Lead to make it stronger.

Antinomy doesn't exist in the game, although Stibnite does (which is an Antinomy ore).  So now in addition to Tennanite you need to add raws for an Antinomy metal and add [METAL_ORE:ANTIMONY:100] to Stibnite.  The last step is a smelting reaction to turn 2 bars of Antimony + 2 bars of Tin + 1 stone of Tennanite into 8 bars of Arsenical Bronze.  It's multi-stepped, but that's okay because it competes with Steel.  Orichalcum does not require iron or flux, but it does sound fairly unlikely that all of the ingredients would occur in the same embark site (Stibnite appears in igneous extrusive layers, Tennanite in igneous intrusive ones).  Unless you want to require luck-of-the-draw access through caravans, alternate reactions using Antimony + Tin + Copper + Orpiment stone and Antimony + Tin + Copper + Realgar stone would probably be required for playability.

[Alestance]

Antinomy doesn't exist in the game, although Stibnite does (which is an Antinomy ore).  So now in addition to Tennanite you need to add raws for an Antinomy metal and add [METAL_ORE:ANTIMONY:100] to Stibnite.  The last step is a smelting reaction to turn 2 bars of Antimony + 2 bars of Tin + 1 stone of Tennanite into 8 bars of Arsenical Bronze.  It's multi-stepped, but that's okay because it competes with Steel.  Orichalcum does not require iron or flux, but it does sound fairly unlikely that all of the ingredients would occur in the same embark site (Stibnite appears in igneous extrusive layers, Tennanite in igneous intrusive ones).  Unless you want to require luck-of-the-draw access through caravans, alternate reactions using Antimony + Tin + Copper + Orpiment stone and Antimony + Tin + Copper + Realgar stone would probably be required for playability.

Tetrahedrite contains Antimony so Stibnite is not likely to be required at all.

[Dirst]

Antinomy doesn't exist in the game, although Stibnite does (which is an Antinomy ore).  So now in addition to Tennanite you need to add raws for an Antinomy metal and add [METAL_ORE:ANTIMONY:100] to Stibnite.  The last step is a smelting reaction to turn 2 bars of Antimony + 2 bars of Tin + 1 stone of Tennanite into 8 bars of Arsenical Bronze.  It's multi-stepped, but that's okay because it competes with Steel.  Orichalcum does not require iron or flux, but it does sound fairly unlikely that all of the ingredients would occur in the same embark site (Stibnite appears in igneous extrusive layers, Tennanite in igneous intrusive ones).  Unless you want to require luck-of-the-draw access through caravans, alternate reactions using Antimony + Tin + Copper + Orpiment stone and Antimony + Tin + Copper + Realgar stone would probably be required for playability.

Tetrahedrite contains Antimony so Stibnite is not likely to be required at all.

So Tennanite has Copper + Arsenic and Tetrahedrite has Copper + Antinomy.  If you don't want to make Arsenic bars, then you probably don't want to make Antinomy bars either.  That simplifies things a tad so that the smelter will be juggling a couple different ores.

Just need to work out reaction(s) for Tennanite that add "Antinomy ore" and reaction(s) for Tetrahedrite that add "Arsenic ore" and maybe one that uses Tennanite + Tetrahedrite.  All of those would require Tin as well.

Still seems like a crapshoot that all of the ingredients would pop up at the same embark site, but with enough variations it should be a decent substitute for Steel.  We'll just assume the Dwarves know which rocks to bang together even if they don't understand the actual chemistry.

[Dirst]

So this is a rough draft of what Orichalcum might look like.  It requires two bars of Copper, two bars of Tin, and some combination of Antinomy- and Arsenic-bearing ores.

Spoiler: inorganic_orichalcum.txt (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

inorganic_orichalcum

[OBJECT:INORGANIC]

[INORGANIC:TENNANITE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:tennanite][DISPLAY_COLOR:7:8:0][TILE:156]
[ENVIRONMENT:IGNEOUS_INTRUSIVE:VEIN:100]
[ITEM_SYMBOL:'*']
[METAL_ORE:COPPER:100]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:3]
[IS_STONE]
[MELTING_POINT:11111]  Copied from tetrahedrite
[SOLID_DENSITY:4900]  Copied from tetrahedrite

[INORGANIC:ORICHALCUM]  All values are average of Bronze and Steel
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:orichalcum]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten orichalcum]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling orichalcum]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:6:4:0]
[BUILD_COLOR:6:4:0]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:20]
[SPEC_HEAT:468]
[MELTING_POINT:12293]
[BOILING_POINT:14554]
[ITEMS_WEAPON][ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED][ITEMS_AMMO][ITEMS_DIGGER][ITEMS_ARMOR]
[ITEMS_HARD]
[ITEMS_METAL]
[ITEMS_BARRED]
[ITEMS_SCALED]
[SOLID_DENSITY:8050]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:7500]
[MOLAR_MASS:67923]
[IMPACT_YIELD:1053500]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:1681750]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:547]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:1053500]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:1681750]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:744]
[TENSILE_YIELD:301000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:480500]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:186]
[TORSION_YIELD:301000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:480500]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:186]
[SHEAR_YIELD:301000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:480500]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:186]
[BENDING_YIELD:301000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:480500]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:186]
[MAX_EDGE:10000]
[STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:BRONZE]

Spoiler: reaction_orichalcum.txt (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

reaction_orichalcum

[OBJECT:REACTION]

[REACTION:ORICHALCUM_MAKING]
[NAME:make orichalcum bars (use tennanite & stibnite)]
[BUILDING:SMELTER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:COPPER]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:TIN]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:TENNANITE]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:STIBNITE]
[PRODUCT:100:8:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:ARSENICAL_BRONZE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[FUEL]
[SKILL:SMELT]

[REACTION:ORICHALCUM_MAKING2]
[NAME:make orichalcum bars (use tetrahedrite & orpiment)]
[BUILDING:SMELTER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:COPPER]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:TIN]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:TETRAHEDRITE]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:ORPIMENT]
[PRODUCT:100:8:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:ARSENICAL_BRONZE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[FUEL]
[SKILL:SMELT]

[REACTION:ORICHALCUM_MAKING3]
[NAME:make orichalcum bars (use tetrahedrite & realgar)]
[BUILDING:SMELTER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:COPPER]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:TIN]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:TETRAHEDRITE]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:REALGAR]
[PRODUCT:100:8:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:ARSENICAL_BRONZE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[FUEL]
[SKILL:SMELT]

[REACTION:ORICHALCUM_MAKING4]
[NAME:make orichalcum bars (use tennanite & tetrahedrite)]
[BUILDING:SMELTER:NONE]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:COPPER]
[REAGENT:A:300:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:TIN]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:TENNANITE]
[REAGENT:C:1:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:TETRAHEDRITE]
[PRODUCT:100:12:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:ARSENICAL_BRONZE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
[FUEL]
[SKILL:SMELT]

The material values for the Orichalcum are just a starting point (a bit stronger and heavier than Iron), but it should work so long as the Dwarven entity is permitted to use the reactions.

That does create another potential problem, however, at least from a role-playing perspective.  All civilizations use their reactions even if they don't have access to the underlying ingredients.  This is why all Dwarven kingdoms have Steel armor and weapons even if they don't have Iron.  The computer also doesn't care about the supposed scarcity of materials either, so you'll see trade caravans show up with Orichalcum toys.

Edit: Forgot that my tileset changes the characters for some minerals.  I changed the tile symbol for Tennanite to be the same as vanilla's Tetrahedrite (though still a slightly different color).

Edit 2: A later post pointed out that Arsenical Bronze is not really the same thing as Orichalcum.  I changed the tokens within the spoilers to reflect that, though the material properties themselves are still wild guesses.