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Author Topic: [insert gender-related title here!]: Beware the Evil Philosiphers version  (Read 28963 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2014, 06:45:58 am »

1. A gross distortion of reality is not "emotional speak".
Emotions distort reality, that's why you don't take them at face value. You didn't think they literally micromanage their efforts with the zeal of a DF player to get a 50/50 representation in all fields now, did you?

2. I fixed the bolded typo. Can you understand it now?
Nope. It's mainly the last bit, I feel like there's 3 sentences all running into each other there and I can't tell which is supposed to be the one you mean.

Reudh

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2014, 07:57:08 am »

Both genders are equal in their ability to attain great strength and/or dexterity
No
I... have to agree with this.

It's not that men will be strong and women won't, it's just that the hormones we produce have effects which change the balance one way or the other. Maybe drastically, maybe not, I'm not sure, but hormones (In regards to strength, testosterone is probably a big player) will certainly have a role in these things, and men and women have, obviously, differing levels of hormones.

Not gonna find much progesterone in men, for example.

Testosterone significantly affects musculature. Newborn males, specifically, for a period of months have testosterone levels of a teenager, but it then tapers significantly downward after a few months, to be barely detectable.

Tawa

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2014, 11:20:23 am »

-snip-Newborn males, specifically, for a period of months have testosterone levels of a teenager,-snip-

Oh flying spaghetti monster, I cannot get the idea of a baby with a moustache out of my head.

help meeeee
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aenri

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2014, 02:21:03 pm »

http://m.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/transgender-womens-rights-advocate-and-prominent-twitter-engineer-charged-with-rape/Content?oid=2761316

Hopefully the right thread for it. It's gender related. Maybe it could go into "people are really stupid" thread, but that thread got locked down, I think.

So who do you think will get the most flak from SJW warriors? The MtF alleged rapist or her wife? Also the comments on that site are really fun to watch. I like that the commenters instantly turn away from respecting her as MtF when she does something that conflicts with their prejudices (in this case, only men can rape, so she is a man).
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Loud Whispers

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2014, 03:06:49 pm »

I like that the commenters instantly turn away from respecting her as MtF when she does something that conflicts with their prejudices (in this case, only men can rape, so she is a man).
A while back there was yet another schism in the tumblr feminist crowd where the objecting feminists believed that trans folk were an attack on womanhood by mtf trans. So I imagine it's those same SJW's just being consistent, in their own little way.

Helgoland

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2014, 03:12:52 pm »

Palsch: I'm talking about stuff like men not wearing skirts, or men holding the door for women, or even certain professions being seen as more 'masculine' or 'feminine' than others.
Last things first: Your example is a very good one. Women would (probably) face no more discrimination (in the form of drawing flak from their surroundings) for taking the Parcelforce job than for taking the Amazon one. If a woman - or women in general - choose not to pick the Parcelforce job, it's their loss. There's nothing wrong with memes, as long as we don't hurt the ones who don't conform to it.
With differences as big as the ones you described, I expect the gap to go away soon, anyway. Not because of anti-sexism, but because of women's personal preferences.
Men holding the door for women: Again, nobody is harmed. Holding the door open and making an inappropriate comment would be harmful; just holding the door open merely means acknowledging that a difference exists.
Skirts: This can actually be harmful! Just look at crossdressers. However, I sincerely doubt that many people would argue that this social norm constitutes a serious repression of all men. Because of their education, most don't want to anyway; and they aren't repressed by the social norm, even though it was that very norm that led to their preference! Again: As long as there's no discrimination of nonconformists, there's nothing wrong with (gender-specific) social norms.

I just thought of another example: The need to cover up your nipples. The same arguments as above apply ;)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2014, 03:19:50 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You know I don't think anyone ever suspected the internet hate machine would develop the sort of low cunning needed to claim moral superiority. I miss the good old days when you know someone wanted you dead because they simply hated you, or because they could hate you, no strings attached. Anyways pic related is exhibit A. Rainbow and SRS don't get along well.

kaenneth

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2014, 03:21:45 pm »

-snip-Newborn males, specifically, for a period of months have testosterone levels of a teenager,-snip-

Oh flying spaghetti monster, I cannot get the idea of a baby with a moustache out of my head.

help meeeee

It happens, even to girl babies.
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palsch

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2014, 03:41:35 pm »

For people who aren't aware of actual divisions and movements within feminism (tip; has very little to do with tumblr, which has every group you can imagine along with a fair few you probably couldn't dream up after a hit of LSD or five), there are a substantial subset of modern radical feminists who do not accept transwomen as women. These are sometimes referred to as Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists (TERFs). You generally see the most vitriolic transphobia coming from this group and I'd fully expect them to jump all over this as a way to attack all transwomen.

Fakedit: Yeah, there we go.

I say subset of modern radical feminists because there are some radical feminists who accept transwomen and speak out against such groups, while the writings of at least some early radicals (seen as founders of the second wave) were at least less strident on that point (take Dworkin, although her views on gender were radical in the most literal sense anyway).

Last things first: Your example is a very good one. Women would (probably) face no more discrimination (in the form of drawing flak from their surroundings) for taking the Parcelforce job than for taking the Amazon one. If a woman - or women in general - choose not to pick the Parcelforce job, it's their loss.
But the job being effectively gendered by the management and staff means that women are unlikely to take it, even if they could do it. It's that gendering of the job, by the staff and society at large, that keeps them out. Personal preference plays into that, but such preferences are more shaped by society than you seem to be accounting for.

The cultural stereotypes play a substantial role in keeping the women out of those jobs. The Amazon counterexample was meant to demonstrate this. It lacked the baggage of being an obviously 'physical' job and wasn't in an established male dominated field, so, despite being broadly similar, recruited far more women.

The way I see it, a woman going for the Parcelforce job or any other traditionally male role would have to get past three obvious barrier;

1) Potential discrimination by management/recruiters who don't believe a woman would be suited to the job.
2) Similar discrimination by the workforce, making them unwelcome or uncomfortable.
3) Personal expectations of either of the above that put them off applying.

3 is significant here. If a field has a reputation for being male then women are unlikely to apply simply because exposing yourself to potential discrimination is not attractive. Saying women choose not to apply for or enter a traditionally male field may have more to do with that field's reputation and expected treatment of women than the women's actual preferences or desires as far as work goes.

Which is to say that both 1 and 2 are explicitly harmful, but even the cultural perception that they should be expected for entering a field can have a harmful effect on women by pushing them out of a field even before they apply. Working to actively and visibly reduce and oppose explicit sexism while also actively courting and encouraging women in those roles is the only real way to address such issues.

Which is all a longwinded way of saying that pretending you can create hard and fast rules for treating someone based on gender is in itself a harmful idea, even if it doesn't seem so on the surface.


And the whole holding open a door thing confuses me. Do you not hold them open for men? Where is that acceptable? Someone letting a door close in your face has always been seen as fucking rude as far I was aware. And what exactly is it about a woman that makes holding a door for them more required that holding a door for a man?

And that's before going into the fact that making such calls based on genders means you have to assign a gender to everyone to know how you are supposed to treat them. That is problematic in itself.
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Eagle_eye

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2014, 04:15:20 pm »

Quote
Not really. Aside from unskilled manual labor, which is continuing to decline in economic importance, and fighting, which isn't necessary at all, strength really isn't that important.
Is naive, and I am so done. You lot bicker about your income differences and your insultingly helpful door opening, but don't you dare insult biology like this. Unless you stronk like Tatiana Kashirina and you're a woman, the chances are overwhelmingly against you that you won't be as good as a man in a physically demanding job. Hence the over representation of men in physically demanding labours, hence the lowering of entry standards in militaries to even allow the average woman to work there. It is a nice idea that you can be as good as anyone if you work hard enough, and sure you can probably beat some ungrateful shit who doesn't work as hard as you even if they've got some natural talent for whatever it is they're doing.

A: I like how you automatically assume I'm female because I support feminism. I'm not.

B: I'm well aware that men are far overrepresented in physical labor. So what? Physical labor is rapidly being replaced with robots. Humans will probably be obsolete in that arena within my lifetime.  Being strong doesn't make you superior to anyone, and it doesn't make you special. It doesn't matter one bit. I respect Stephen Hawking or Jonas Salk infinitely more than some wannabe Rambo in the military or a professional wrestler letting tweens vicariously live out their fantasies: A person's mind is the only thing that matters, and in that arena, men and women are equal.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2014, 04:40:48 pm »

A: I like how you automatically assume I'm female because I support feminism. I'm not.

B: I'm well aware that men are far overrepresented in physical labor. So what? Physical labor is rapidly being replaced with robots. Humans will probably be obsolete in that arena within my lifetime.  Being strong doesn't make you superior to anyone, and it doesn't make you special. It doesn't matter one bit. I respect Stephen Hawking or Jonas Salk infinitely more than some wannabe Rambo in the military or a professional wrestler letting tweens vicariously live out their fantasies: A person's mind is the only thing that matters, and in that arena, men and women are equal.
A: Where'd I do that? On the internet no one knows you're a dog, and I live by that.

B: Because as we all know, the only jobs that require physical labour are in teenage wrestling and rambo militaries.

Here's to every plumber who cleans the business of others we'd best not remember, every carpenter who creates tables with four legs of equal size, each and every EMT who honestly needs more pay for what they do, the firemen who climb ladders and kill fires and the construction workers and bricklayers who rebuild that house that just burnt down! The oil riggers and the engineers who keep industrial society plump, alive and consuming, the divers who go around feeling up bombs and mines with their hands in the dark depths to keep the sea lanes safe and open, the cattle ranchers who herd innumerable hordes of cattle into the gaping jaws of America, logistic guys - yeah the ones who stack shelves from lorries and all that, you guys rock. All the folks in the industries who work iron, who work coal, who work every last god damned alloy and plastic known to mankind into random shit for  everyone to buy, god do I love you. Soldiers and sailors and pilots, try to just do what's best and keep everyone safe - even the guys you're shooting at, don't take the human out of war. Policemen, I am lucky to live in Britain for its policemen are the best in the world; I still wouldn't trust them but at least I can trust them to not shoot me. You guys are all right, just try not to go down the bad path and go all "us vs them." Elevator repairmen, also those dudes who climb on broadcasting towers and those who dangle on the sides of skyscrapers - how do you even work? I applaud you for doing what I cannot. Fishermen, ah fishermen, the deadliest trade for most of mankind - I hope you live long, and cast nets not full of jellyfish. Powerplant operators, locomotive operators, I know you and I haven't been on best terms for so long but we all know that the decisions are out of your hand when it comes to screwing over the public, I hope you the best too. Electric guys, gas guys, even those guys who clean up the dead birds in wind turbines - I'd give you all the tea and biscuits in the world if I could. Piledriver guys, I honestly don't know what the fuck it is you do or why you come from Svalbard or why you have to make so much noise, but you're legit in my books. Lumberjack guys, ahahahaha lumberjack guys stop cutting down Russia it's not good for it. Millies and operators, I like the way you move big machines; the bagger 288 is a god amongst metal. And last but not least, the dear track repairman, bless you for working in the storms that nearly killed us, bless you.

Ahem, yes that is all from me. I honestly don't see what you have against the working class, a healthy mind and a healthy body is best and it's a tad bit rude to just up and go state that anyone wearing a blue collar is inferior because they're a tradesman. I'll take a mechanical turk over a robot any day, and I don't see why tradesmen deserve less respect than blue sky thinkers. It's this sort of thinking that has left the UK with a working class without any working ethics.

scriver

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2014, 04:47:01 pm »

Nice strawman, LW.
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Helgoland

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2014, 04:49:47 pm »

Which is all a longwinded way of saying that pretending you can create hard and fast rules for treating someone based on gender is in itself a harmful idea, even if it doesn't seem so on the surface.
Certainly not hard and fast ones, no; the point I'm trying to make is that treating people differently because of their gender is not always a bad thing. Not treating them decently is, though.
Personal preference plays into that, but such preferences are more shaped by society than you seem to be accounting for.
There's the rub: I'm saying preferences are shaped almost completely by our surroundings, and that there's no surroundings-independent preferences. That's why it doesn't matter where the preferences come from.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: We should all care less. Give everyone a fair chance, regardless of who they are, respect their decisions, regardless of whether they're unconventional, and get on with our lives. As long as we act decently, as long as we see the other person as a human being, the details of our or their behaviour don't make that much of a difference.

And about holding the door open: I hold it open for everyone, of course; but I take greater care to not, for example, walk through first when it's a woman walking through. There's no real reasoning behind it; it's just something I picked up. I do the same for elders, my parents, teachers/professors, guests, etc. It's a sign of respect, I guess.

Ninjaedit: Eagle, a) physical labor is going to stay around for a long time, in third world countries or in contruction and the like, b) a person's mind shouldn't matter either, and c) I don't think it's been rigorously proven that men and women are intellectually equal. I wouldn't be too surprised if women were more intelligent~
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Loud Whispers

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2014, 04:56:44 pm »

Nice strawman, LW.
You tell me with a straight face that someone whose idea of manual labour is rambo flexing his oiled muscles and wrestlers giving tween dreams since 1970 has any inkling of respect for them, and I'll eat a whole chicken.

Eagle_eye

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Re: [insert gender-related title here!]
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2014, 05:04:53 pm »

Being a plumber, a carpenter, or an EMT, or a construction worker, or any one of the majority of the jobs you described, doesn't require any sort of unusual strength, it requires practice and some measure of dexterity. Those are all tasks any healthy human can do if they have the skill. Being an engineer *certainly* doesn't require any strength, since it's, you know, designing things. I'll grant you firefighters though.

And I have nothing against the working class- I'm a socialist, for god's sake. I have no respect for anyone who thinks that their physical strength makes them better than anyone else, or deserving of different treatment. And I have no respect for anyone who's proud of suffering- you're not special because you work all day, you're getting screwed. You should be angry. Being part of the working class doesn't make you better, it makes you a victim.

Helgoland:

a: I disagree. People in 1770 would have said that handmade clothing would be staying around for a long time too. Ultimately, robots are cheaper to keep around than human laborers, and so they're eventually going to replace them.
b: I meant mind as a catchall for personality/character/etc, not just raw intelligence.
c: That's not something that's "provable" in an absolute sense, but the overwhelming majority of the evidence suggests that no, there is no statistically significant difference in average intelligence.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 05:07:50 pm by Eagle_eye »
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