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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Sinistar, Many people treat 14th Waffen SS division are heroes. Why you ask. It is very simple. Because they are volunteers* who went fighting for Ukraine and fought bravery even if they were delusional.

SS Galichina had very few former Soviet soldiers unlike Vlasov's forces. They were local youth hastily trained by Germans

You can see similar stuff in Estonia with their 20th Waffen SS division. They have SS parades, too.

As for my personal opinion... Ukrainian soldiers who fought in various German units are not different to Ukrainian soldiers that fought in the Red Army. Some of them fought bravely for their ideals, Some committed warcrimes,  some tried to find revenge for killed relative, some looked for ways to survive. In the end it was the same, both fought for a force that is hostile to Ukrainians, difference is that one fought for a force that lost and were named criminals and others fought for a force that won and were named heroes.
Both don't deserve their reputation...

[mainiac]

Yet ANOTHER building siezed, it almost sounds like they want the Russians to take over that part of the country. I don't know whether they were on strict orders to not fight back or what.

Letting these dudes occupy a building doesn't hurt the Ukrainian people very much.  Kick them out in a year, kick them out in a month, it doesn't get the Russians one step closer to Kiev.

Take a moment and reflect on how the frame of events is shifting here.  Not too long ago we were worried about a civil war dividing the country in two.  Now were worried about protesters in their tenth largest city.  These are protesters who's only halfway decent rallying cry (the demand for referendum) is something that the government can and will give them without risking Ukraine's future in the least.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Letting these dudes occupy a building doesn't hurt the Ukrainian people very much.  Kick them out in a year, kick them out in a month, it doesn't get the Russians one step closer to Kiev.

Take a moment and reflect on how the frame of events is shifting here.  Not too long ago we were worried about a civil war dividing the country in two.  Now were worried about protesters in their tenth largest city.  These are protesters who's only halfway decent rallying cry (the demand for referendum) is something that the government can and will give them without risking Ukraine's future in the least.

What is more important: They weren't allowed to capture really important stuff - airports, military bases, weapon stockpiles, power-stations, bridges... Also, so far, unrest is localized in the most eastern region bordering Russia, most of Ukraine is calm. Really if you don't watch TV or use Internet it is normal everyday life here.
I remember how someone here, I think Sergarrr(not sure) predicted that Kyiv will fall before May 1st


Still passiveness of the ATO is very weird. I guess it is better than Russian Style ATO in Beslan 2004 but it looks like going to far into opposite direction

[Sinistar]

Apparently, they use Nazi symbolics all along, since Euromaidan till now. Ask UR. Or google. Or BBC. And they mean it. Though it is a highly flammable question.

Who are "they"? I'm not trying to be provocative, I really don't know. A month or so ago it was more or less accepted truth (at least on this forum) that there certainly are extreme, even nazi-like groups among the Euromaidan protesters, but they were supposed to be relatively small in numbers and not really prominent and even the supposed nazi-like symbols were almost non-existent bar few fringe examples. Then again, I do confess I lost touch a bit shortly after Yanukovich fell, I didn't really pay attention what was said about those kind of groups in post-protest analysis.
And yeah, I remember Pravi Sektor using black sun or whatnot, but just straight-up parading SS banners around?...

Well some people already said UPA was pro nazi for quite some time. That and the great pole axing that happened back in the day (60k people axed mostly women and children) made poles look suspiciosly on anything related to ukraine as of late.

UPA? As in, Ukrainian Insurgent Army, associated with Bandera? Ok, yes, I did seen quite a few accusation of him and his followers being branded as Nazis. As understand it, it's quite a controversial topic. Wikipedia says UPA itself was supposed to be both anti-soviet AND anti-Nazi, but what do I know...

Sinistar, Many people treat 14th Waffen SS division are heroes. Why you ask. It is very simple. Because they are volunteers* who went fighting for Ukraine and fought bravery even if they were delusional.

SS Galichina had very few former Soviet soldiers unlike Vlasov's forces. They were local youth hastily trained by Germans

You can see similar stuff in Estonia with their 20th Waffen SS division. They have SS parades, too.

As for my personal opinion... Ukrainian soldiers who fought in various German units are not different to Ukrainian soldiers that fought in the Red Army. Some of them fought bravely for their ideals, Some committed warcrimes,  some tried to find revenge for killed relative, some looked for ways to survive. In the end it was the same, both fought for a force that is hostile to Ukrainians, difference is that one fought for a force that lost and were named criminals and others fought for a force that won and were named heroes.
Both don't deserve their reputation...

 
Fair enough. I understand people fighting AGAINST something they believe is evil and not caring the force they are fighting along side might be evil in itself. The enemy of your enemy is your friend and all that.

Still my original stance remains unchanged - it's bad simply using a symbol that might be associated with evil (in this case - Nazism), even if said users might not mean evil themselves (that is, even if they do not approve of Nazism). It for their good really. But that's just my subjective opinion. I thank you all three for answers.

[vagel7]

You can see similar stuff in Estonia with their 20th Waffen SS division. They have SS parades, too.

Although it is not denied that such a division existed, it is even taught in our history as during WWII brothers very oftenly fought against each other due to the country changing hands a lot, we do not have any nazi symbols in our parades. There has been an SS parade in Riga, but never in Estonia. Some surviving SS guys do take part in our military parades, but those are only the ones who were not punished after WWII and who entered the Estonian military. Recently a former SS Estonian officer died. He had joined the Estonian military after WWII. For that and a successful career in our military he got a military burial and he was also the most highly militarily decorated Estonian. I think that it would be quite scandalous either way, if anybody would want to organise an SS parade here.

In fact in 2002 our government took down a monument that was put up in honour of the Estonian SS division. It was put up by another county after a few years and then taken down by the government again. It is now at the hands of a private museum.

[scrdest]

I like how you speak of 'axing poles'. I think there's a pun in there, but I just can't fiiiiind iiiit.


(Hey, I'm a Pole, I'm allowed to joke about that).

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I like how you speak of 'axing poles'. I think there's a pun in there, but I just can't fiiiiind iiiit.


(Hey, I'm a Pole, I'm allowed to joke about that).

I think he meant some very unpleasant events - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
Note that wiki is a wiki so don't expect it too be truly neutral

[Helgoland]

I can think of one - "Axing polackses." With an incorrect plural, and a slur that might only exist in German...

[Knit tie]

Sinistar, Many people treat 14th Waffen SS division are heroes. Why you ask. It is very simple. Because they are volunteers* who went fighting for Ukraine and fought bravery even if they were delusional.

SS Galichina had very few former Soviet soldiers unlike Vlasov's forces. They were local youth hastily trained by Germans

You can see similar stuff in Estonia with their 20th Waffen SS division. They have SS parades, too.

As for my personal opinion... Ukrainian soldiers who fought in various German units are not different to Ukrainian soldiers that fought in the Red Army. Some of them fought bravely for their ideals, Some committed warcrimes,  some tried to find revenge for killed relative, some looked for ways to survive. In the end it was the same, both fought for a force that is hostile to Ukrainians, difference is that one fought for a force that lost and were named criminals and others fought for a force that won and were named heroes.
Both don't deserve their reputation...

Why are people still trying to assign the labels of "hero" and "villain" on a group basis? Those are based entirely on personal merit by definition.

Also, hello, everybody, what's new?

[Helgoland]

Schröder hugged Putin.

[Knit tie]

Schröder hugged Putin.

So what? I once hugged a drug dealer, and with genuine affection too.

[mainiac]

So what? I once hugged a drug dealer, and with genuine affection too.

So did I!  Was yours named Dominique?

[Knit tie]

So what? I once hugged a drug dealer, and with genuine affection too.

So did I!  Was yours named Dominique?

Stepan. One of my friends went to get a fix after a party, bought some from him, got absolutely wasted and went missing. Next day he found the guy and returned him to us.

[scrdest]

I can think of one - "Axing polackses." With an incorrect plural, and a slur that might only exist in German...

I've been referring to the word 'poleaxe'.

I'm very much aware of what happened at Volhynia, I've actually been to a village, or rather would have been to it had it existed, because it was razed to the ground and the inhabitants murdered.

[Knit tie]

I can think of one - "Axing polackses." With an incorrect plural, and a slur that might only exist in German...

I've been referring to the word 'poleaxe'.

I'm very much aware of what happened at Volhynia, I've actually been to a village, or rather would have been to it had it existed, because it was razed to the ground and the inhabitants murdered.

People had a habit of doing that back then.