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[notquitethere]

TheWetSheep

OK, but you usually start the game with RVS. You even did it in the last round, which was exactly like this round, except for the no NK rule.

Not exactly the same, as there are still surviving players. You're right though that I should get myself more in the mindset that this is a completely different round: for me though nothing's changed since the last time (I'm still town, I still don't know who the King is) and I think mentally I was already past the random vote stage.

A post that only contains useless claims is not really an acceptable gamestart post. Scumhunting is what I'm talking about.

It also contained a question, which is the start for scumhunting. After all, here we are discussing game-relevant things. Further, it behooved me to inform others as to whether I'd learned anything as a Jedi.

This is just bad logic. Yes, town can drop scumtells too.

I think we have very different ideas as to what constitutes a good scumhunting. In my book, if town can drop a 'scumtell' then it's not a useful tell.

And you didn't claim your Jedi stuff D1 - why?

I wasn't going to claim disabling Shakerag because he might have visited retribution regardless of his alignment, and I didn't want to say about the Orange Goo in case I messed with another town player's strategy. On retrospect, maybe alerting people to the possibility of an Orange Goo might have been the right thing to do. Given the high probability of being murdered at night, if I get any remotely useful information, I'll share it in future.

And why'd you vote me? I don't really see any accusations in that post, just an OMGUS.

You voted me for 'role-fishing' when I wanted to find out if anyone had useful information. It's likely I'll change my vote to one of the others if they don't get in and post soon. I have no info at the moment so you're as fine a target as any.


Shakerag— we still can't lynch you, right?

Cheese— why did you pardon Tiruin?

Wolf— did your kill fail last night?

Powderminer— so do you think that the final King wins King Mafia in spite of mass claims?

[notquitethere]

Cheese Ignore the earlier question, I missed your response somehow. OK. Do you think a massclaim would have found Ottofar sooner?

[Shakerag]

Powder Miner:

Inspected mastahcheese, got town; but in retrospect that's not a particularly reliable result since I can't know how reliable or unreliable my results are. If someone could provide a crossresult of some sort, that'd be great.

If I were KING MAFIA, I'd want to know who had an inspect also.  Nice try at being coy.


mastahcheese:

I really just don't know what to ask that could possibly provide information. This isn't like any other game I've been in.

So play like you've never played in any other game.


TWS:

I don't know why you guys see this as such an extraordinarily role-heavy game. In a standard BYOR each player has more abilities than what I've seen from the role-flips and my own role.

It used to be way more role-heavy.  Read the earlier KotM thread.


NQT:

Shakerag— we still can't lynch you, right?

You'll never know until you try.


4maskwolf:  Ask yourself a question and answer it for me.

What makes it different? Why is scumhunting ineffective in this game and not others?

Ahh hah hah, burn.

[notquitethere]

Shakerag— Interesting case on Powder. Do you not see a town inspector saying the same thing?

[TheWetSheep]

NQT:

A post that only contains useless claims is not really an acceptable gamestart post. Scumhunting is what I'm talking about.

It also contained a question, which is the start for scumhunting. After all, here we are discussing game-relevant things. Further, it behooved me to inform others as to whether I'd learned anything as a Jedi.

No, you don't get points for making a scumslip that started conversation when I pressed you on it.

I think we have very different ideas as to what constitutes a good scumhunting. In my book, if town can drop a 'scumtell' then it's not a useful tell.

What? Are you saying town makes no mistakes? All the times you've mislynched somebody they were dropping no tells?

I wasn't going to claim disabling Shakerag because he might have visited retribution regardless of his alignment, and I didn't want to say about the Orange Goo in case I messed with another town player's strategy.

These are terrible reasons. The first relies on you thinking that Shakerag is highly impulsive and illogical, which you know isn't the case. The second makes no sense, especially since you yourself say that if you get anything remotely useful you'll claim it instantly.

You voted me for 'role-fishing' when I wanted to find out if anyone had useful information. It's likely I'll change my vote to one of the others if they don't get in and post soon. I have no info at the moment so you're as fine a target as any.

Oh I see. You'd rather OMGUS than scumhunt with your vote.


Shakerag:

I don't know why you guys see this as such an extraordinarily role-heavy game. In a standard BYOR each player has more abilities than what I've seen from the role-flips and my own role.

It used to be way more role-heavy.  Read the earlier KotM thread.

Yeah, I have, but it should be obvious by now that it's not going to be like that.

What makes it different? Why is scumhunting ineffective in this game and not others?

Ahh hah hah, burn.

What?

[notquitethere]

TheWetSheep

What? Are you saying town makes no mistakes? All the times you've mislynched somebody they were dropping no tells?

Town make stupid mistakes all the time. When I mislynch someone, I know full well that I'm only making the best guess in a situation of imperfect information. I tend not to work off of tells anyway, most so-called tells don't amount to a hill of beans. It's people's actions that tend to say more (not that this is infallible either) and last turn I voted a town Tiruin because of her actions rather than her words.

I wasn't going to claim disabling Shakerag because he might have visited retribution regardless of his alignment, and I didn't want to say about the Orange Goo in case I messed with another town player's strategy.

These are terrible reasons. The first relies on you thinking that Shakerag is highly impulsive and illogical, which you know isn't the case. The second makes no sense, especially since you yourself say that if you get anything remotely useful you'll claim it instantly.

Dispute my reasons if you like, you know I was town then and I didn't claim and I judged it to be reasonable at the time. Now, I've had a rethink and take a slightly more relaxed position to claims in this game, but obviously I still don't think a claim should be made if doing so may jeopardise the town.

Your points about my scumhunting lack teeth: unlike you, I've actually now directed a specific question to every other player. Have you not got anything to say to Wolf?

[4maskwolf]

TheWetSheep

OK, but you usually start the game with RVS. You even did it in the last round, which was exactly like this round, except for the no NK rule.

Not exactly the same, as there are still surviving players. You're right though that I should get myself more in the mindset that this is a completely different round: for me though nothing's changed since the last time (I'm still town, I still don't know who the King is) and I think mentally I was already past the random vote stage.

A post that only contains useless claims is not really an acceptable gamestart post. Scumhunting is what I'm talking about.

It also contained a question, which is the start for scumhunting. After all, here we are discussing game-relevant things. Further, it behooved me to inform others as to whether I'd learned anything as a Jedi.

This is just bad logic. Yes, town can drop scumtells too.

I think we have very different ideas as to what constitutes a good scumhunting. In my book, if town can drop a 'scumtell' then it's not a useful tell.

And you didn't claim your Jedi stuff D1 - why?

I wasn't going to claim disabling Shakerag because he might have visited retribution regardless of his alignment, and I didn't want to say about the Orange Goo in case I messed with another town player's strategy. On retrospect, maybe alerting people to the possibility of an Orange Goo might have been the right thing to do. Given the high probability of being murdered at night, if I get any remotely useful information, I'll share it in future.

And why'd you vote me? I don't really see any accusations in that post, just an OMGUS.

You voted me for 'role-fishing' when I wanted to find out if anyone had useful information. It's likely I'll change my vote to one of the others if they don't get in and post soon. I have no info at the moment so you're as fine a target as any.


Shakerag— we still can't lynch you, right?

Cheese— why did you pardon Tiruin?

Wolf— did your kill fail last night?

Powderminer— so do you think that the final King wins King Mafia in spite of mass claims?

Yes, NQT, my nonexistent kill failed last night. Quit rolefishing.

Powder Miner:

Inspected mastahcheese, got town; but in retrospect that's not a particularly reliable result since I can't know how reliable or unreliable my results are. If someone could provide a crossresult of some sort, that'd be great.

If I were KING MAFIA, I'd want to know who had an inspect also.  Nice try at being coy.


mastahcheese:

I really just don't know what to ask that could possibly provide information. This isn't like any other game I've been in.

So play like you've never played in any other game.


TWS:

I don't know why you guys see this as such an extraordinarily role-heavy game. In a standard BYOR each player has more abilities than what I've seen from the role-flips and my own role.

It used to be way more role-heavy.  Read the earlier KotM thread.


NQT:

Shakerag— we still can't lynch you, right?

You'll never know until you try.


4maskwolf:  Ask yourself a question and answer it for me.

What makes it different? Why is scumhunting ineffective in this game and not others?

Ahh hah hah, burn.

No, I'm not. I have limited enough time on the forums as is to ask myself questions for someone else's benefit.

[TheWetSheep]

Town make stupid mistakes all the time. When I mislynch someone, I know full well that I'm only making the best guess in a situation of imperfect information. I tend not to work off of tells anyway, most so-called tells don't amount to a hill of beans. It's people's actions that tend to say more (not that this is infallible either) and last turn I voted a town Tiruin because of her actions rather than her words.

Which actions? There were no provable actions that showed her to be mafia, you lynched her because she was acting funny. In words.

Dispute my reasons if you like, you know I was town then and I didn't claim and I judged it to be reasonable at the time. Now, I've had a rethink and take a slightly more relaxed position to claims in this game, but obviously I still don't think a claim should be made if doing so may jeopardise the town.

My point is that I think that the most likely reason for this shift in views is an alignment change.

Your points about my scumhunting lack teeth: unlike you, I've actually now directed a specific question to every other player. Have you not got anything to say to Wolf?

Nope. I'm past RVS now.

You only started questioning people when I pressured you. Also, why is your vote parked on somebody you're not pressuring when you could use it to add weight to your RVS?

[ToonyMan]

Votecount (4 votes to hammer):

Notquitethere: TheWetSheep (1)
TheWetSheep: Notquitethere (1)
Powder Miner: Shakerag (1)
Not voting: Mastahcheese, 4maskwolf, Powder Miner (3)


Day ends in about 23 hours.

[Tiruin]

Votecount (3 votes to hammer):

Notquitethere: TheWetSheep (1)
TheWetSheep: Notquitethere (1)
Powder Miner: Shakerag (1)
Not voting: Mastahcheese, 4maskwolf, Powder Miner (3)


Day ends in about 23 hours.

Err, is it 3 votes needed to hammer or 6 votes?

[ToonyMan]

It should be 4 votes to hammer. With 6 players alive you'd need at least 4 players to get over 50%.

[Powder Miner]

So when given the choice of using something that can find and kill the mafia and not using it, you choose the latter?

The entire point I'd been making was that it may not, in fact, be effective in finding and killing mafia-- it's more like when given the choice of wasting time on something that doesn't work in this instance and working on something more productive, I chose the latter.

It does look like scumhunting might be a better idea than I thought it was.

NQT, your question:

Powderminer— so do you think that the final King wins King Mafia in spite of mass claims?

The Final King wins King Mafia in spite of every single tactic used to try to bring him down, of course it'd be in spite of massclaiming.

Powder Miner:

Inspected mastahcheese, got town; but in retrospect that's not a particularly reliable result since I can't know how reliable or unreliable my results are. If someone could provide a crossresult of some sort, that'd be great.

If I were KING MAFIA, I'd want to know who had an inspect also.  Nice try at being coy.

This isn't a normal mafia game where a single inspect role turns the tide of a game by virtue of its rarity-- in KotM, it's probable that there's more than one inspect role, and thus it's more useful to get information out there for review than to sit on a role and not give anything out, ESPECIALLY when the short nature of the game makes it questionable if there'll be a later time to report it. Yet perhaps you don't want that information circulating?

I have no info at the moment so you're as fine a target as any.

So, notquitethere, let me get this straight: you go off of actions instead of words, so basically you totally eschew the actual daygame? And then your only action is to vote a guy for voting you because your refusal to play the daygame has left you no info? You're excusing OMGUS by stating that, basically "why not"-- you refuse to deal with the various questioning everyone else is doing. Words are integral here, even when claiming is involved you always need to look at what people are saying.

[notquitethere]

Sheep

Which actions? There were no provable actions that showed her to be mafia, you lynched her because she was acting funny. In words.

I lynched her because of her voting behavior, which though not infallible is a better guide to scumminess as I have argued many times before elsewhere as you surely must know by now.

My point is that I think that the most likely reason for this shift in views is an alignment change.

It's a cute theory but you're wrong.

Nope. I'm past RVS now.

I see, so you don't believe you have to interact with every player to find scum.  When there are only five players. Right. I don't think this necessarily makes you scum, but I don't think much of your town technique.  Still, I guess you're being more engaged than most others.

You only started questioning people when I pressured you. Also, why is your vote parked on somebody you're not pressuring when you could use it to add weight to your RVS?

In actual fact the game started while I was at work and K didn't have much time to make a long post for the first few posts- but you'll note that I did ask the same specific question to a bunch of people before you 'pressured' me. And you don't think I'm pressuring you in return? Still, I'll say one thing, at least you have a case.

Wolf
Watch out, you're enroute to being mod-killed and permabanned.

Cheese And another thing... why did you vote then immediately unvote? The day only lasts 48 hours, do you intend to make a case before it closes?

Powder

So, notquitethere, let me get this straight: you go off of actions instead of words, so basically you totally eschew the actual daygame?

No. That's a misunderstanding of my long-held position. I take votes to be the most significant action, and I'm more than happy to look at the bullshit cases that accompany votes. I'm all about the day game but in a way that other people aren't. Go see the mafia theory thread if you think I'm just making this up now.

And then your only action is to vote a guy for voting you because your refusal to play the daygame has left you no info? You're excusing OMGUS by stating that, basically "why not"-- you refuse to deal with the various questioning everyone else is doing. Words are integral here, even when claiming is involved you always need to look at what people are saying.

Yes, you need to look at what people are saying, but more important, as good scum are great liars, is to look at what people are doing with their votes and night actions. My first act of today was to ascertain the night action part, now I'm continuing to follow up on the voting part. I you think this makes me scum then you've obviously never seen me in any other game I'm in.

[Powder Miner]

Powder

So, notquitethere, let me get this straight: you go off of actions instead of words, so basically you totally eschew the actual daygame?

No. That's a misunderstanding of my long-held position. I take votes to be the most significant action, and I'm more than happy to look at the bullshit cases that accompany votes. I'm all about the day game but in a way that other people aren't. Go see the mafia theory thread if you think I'm just making this up now.[/quote]You've had votes today. Why did you not, then, take action based off of it, besides an OMGUS?

And then your only action is to vote a guy for voting you because your refusal to play the daygame has left you no info? You're excusing OMGUS by stating that, basically "why not"-- you refuse to deal with the various questioning everyone else is doing. Words are integral here, even when claiming is involved you always need to look at what people are saying.

Yes, you need to look at what people are saying, but more important, as good scum are great liars, is to look at what people are doing with their votes and night actions. My first act of today was to ascertain the night action part, now I'm continuing to follow up on the voting part. I you think this makes me scum then you've obviously never seen me in any other game I'm in.

Your definition of "following up on the voting part" was voting someone who voted you. What information could you have gleaned form that vote except for "This person is a threat to me"? And, no, I won't leave you alone because I've never played games with you. You can harp over and over to everyone about how your playstyle works, but I simply won't depend on your meta to completely overturn all cases. You need to provide arguments that have to do with the specific situation, not arguments that hinge on how you play across all games.

WetSheep, I'm curious: You seem to be arguing with notquitethere about his reasons for lynching someone last round. How would those apply to this round, since his previous alignment is irrelevant to the current one?

[notquitethere]

Powder Miner

You've had votes today. Why did you not, then, take action based off of it, besides an OMGUS?

I'd dispute that it was an OMGUS in the full sense of the word, as I know that Sheep's vote on me was based on bogus case, as you'll all see when I flip town. In any case, I'm pleased that Sheep seems to have some kind of case which is more than can be said for some of the others.

Your definition of "following up on the voting part" was voting someone who voted you. What information could you have gleaned form that vote except for "This person is a threat to me"?

This is a reasonable question. In truth, if I'd have had more time when I was initially posting I'd have addressed more players in depth and made better use of my vote. Now I've got a little more time I'm trying to make more use of it.

And, no, I won't leave you alone because I've never played games with you. You can harp over and over to everyone about how your playstyle works, but I simply won't depend on your meta to completely overturn all cases. You need to provide arguments that have to do with the specific situation, not arguments that hinge on how you play across all games.

I can understand your view here, but when my behaviour flows from my overall perspective on mafia, it makes sense for me to refer to this perspective when you accuse me of acting scummily.


Everyone, please don't hammer me right this moment as I'm currently formulating a game breaking strategy based on my role and Powder's that could be guaranteed to find scum, or at the very least narrow it down to two people. Some of it depends on whether Wolf gets himself modkilled this round. I'll have it all worked out in three to five hours. Most of you are probably asleep, but I want to make sure I get this worked out before I'm dead.