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[Nikitian]

Okay, then let's have a few slots for such or similar tanks - say, four. Let's keep the baseline suit at three tokens, and allow it to be upgraded with these small tanks.

The suit itself - use the library of new designs (software, hardware, etc. etc. ) to upgrade the corresponding systems of the suit. See if we now can fit a slightly more powerful generator without increasing overall cost. Also, check if there is a way to provide better electrical insulation (again, without increasing the suit price - maybe a tiny layer of hexsand in the suit, or something?).
Whatever changes are made, keep the price at three tokens. Or minimize/discard the required changes.

Finally, the upgrades. Just how big is that 'small tank'? Can it hold one or several doses of battlestimms? If so, design another tank-upgrade, refillable per maintenance, to be filled with chosen battlestimm substance. Of course, as expensive as it takes.

At the very least, I see that there is also potential for upgrade-tanks with bluesmoke substance and whatever temporary intoxicant for refilling mind points woks, but they would require additional research and it can come later.

[Radio Controlled]

You could totally generate plasma in a better way, though I'm  not sure how you'd generate a moving magnetic field.

So I could have regular components create the plasma (powered by blueraddite battery) and use an automanip only for containing it via magnetic field and shooting it?

And just to get an idea, if we did it like this, would the cost of a design that does the same as a plasma projector (aka large ball of slow moving plasma) go down, and how much?

Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?

[Sean Mirrsen]

You could totally generate plasma in a better way, though I'm  not sure how you'd generate a moving magnetic field.

So I could have regular components create the plasma (powered by blueraddite battery) and use an automanip only for containing it via magnetic field and shooting it?

And just to get an idea, if we did it like this, would the cost of a design that does the same as a plasma projector (aka large ball of slow moving plasma) go down, and how much?

Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?

Take Anton's Plasma Stake and fit it with the automanip of choice if you want an interim solution. Anton will be working on a completely non-manipulator plasma weapon design once he gets through the rest of his backlog.

[Radio Controlled]

Take Anton's Plasma Stake and fit it with the automanip of choice if you want an interim solution. Anton will be working on a completely non-manipulator plasma weapon design once he gets through the rest of his backlog.

Sure, if that works, fine by me. Unless pw asks me to, I wasn't gonna describe in detail how the plasma generation goes, since that's not an exotic mechanism or something.

[piecewise]

I should probably ask this beforehand - when I start doing biotech bullshit either onship or Heph, should I put speculation on the design here? Not quite sure how closely this is stick to IC or OOC anymore, but I do recall that shapeshifting isn't programmed into Tinker, so I'd better ask beforehand.

Are you gonna be on heph?

Okay, then let's have a few slots for such or similar tanks - say, four. Let's keep the baseline suit at three tokens, and allow it to be upgraded with these small tanks.

The suit itself - use the library of new designs (software, hardware, etc. etc. ) to upgrade the corresponding systems of the suit. See if we now can fit a slightly more powerful generator without increasing overall cost. Also, check if there is a way to provide better electrical insulation (again, without increasing the suit price - maybe a tiny layer of hexsand in the suit, or something?).
Whatever changes are made, keep the price at three tokens. Or minimize/discard the required changes.

Finally, the upgrades. Just how big is that 'small tank'? Can it hold one or several doses of battlestimms? If so, design another tank-upgrade, refillable per maintenance, to be filled with chosen battlestimm substance. Of course, as expensive as it takes.

At the very least, I see that there is also potential for upgrade-tanks with bluesmoke substance and whatever temporary intoxicant for refilling mind points woks, but they would require additional research and it can come later.

Alright.

I don't think we can really update much whichout raising the price.

We may, at some point here, have to institute actual currency so everything isn't restrained to 1 token or nothing.

I was thinking soda can sized. And it can be filled with battle stims already. Just take the pills and pour the liquid inside them into it.

You could totally generate plasma in a better way, though I'm  not sure how you'd generate a moving magnetic field.

So I could have regular components create the plasma (powered by blueraddite battery) and use an automanip only for containing it via magnetic field and shooting it?

And just to get an idea, if we did it like this, would the cost of a design that does the same as a plasma projector (aka large ball of slow moving plasma) go down, and how much?

Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?

Yeah, that could work.

it could potentially go down, yes. By several tokens. If you can figure out a way to handle the magnetism problem then even more, and it would make it more usable in the long term.

Using automanips or...?

[Radio Controlled]

By several tokens. If you can figure out a way to handle the magnetism problem then even more, and it would make it more usable in the long term.

Thing is, I'm not sure if we can forego the magnetism problem. I mean, we could try to focus the plasma into a tight beam, but even then I don't think it would get very far in any appreciable atmosphere. I suspect it'd disperse too fast to be of use, except maybe very sort ranges (but that plasma stake kinda has that covered).
In fact, wikipedia has a page on plasma weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_weapon), which says:

Plasma weapons are theoretical, as they need more power than any handheld device could supply. If small portable fusion reactors are made, one potential source of weapons-grade plasma sources might be a direct tap on a fusion reactor, especially a dense plasma focus, since the natural yield of such a reactor is a hot high-speed plasma beam. Making real plasma weapons will need a major scientific breakthrough, as the concept of plasma-firing weapons is scientifically difficult, for various reasons:

• The technology to create plasma compact toroids[4] and particle beams is far too bulky for anything man-portable. In such a high-performance design, the plasma would have to be stored and created in highly focused magnetic bottles, such as those used in NASA's VASIMR rocket: this design has been suggested as a potential weapon design for future real human-engineered plasma weapons. For simpler designs based on plasma cutting torches, a designer might be able to heat the plasma with an arcjet, if his power source is strong enough.
• Using current technology, if a plasma beam was fired in a planetary atmosphere, it would quickly be stopped by atmospheric resistance and would make a short hot flame like a blow torch.
  
• The plasma shot out of a plasma weapon would tend to dissipate in the surrounding environment within about 50 centimeters from the gun, from thermal and/or electric pressure expansion, called blooming, unless:
  -The magnetic confinement bottle is extended all the way to the target. Modifications to this bottle could make the plasma home in on its target. On the other hand, magnetic fields of such strength could also be used to block the plasma.
  -The plasma is somehow made self-sustaining over a much longer time period as with ball lightning.
  -The particles are fired fast enough to reach a target before blooming occurs. This is then a particle beam more than a plasma shot (at least as much as any technical definition for such weapons exists). This would work for use outside atmosphere (i.e. in a space vacuum), but within an atmosphere would merely cause a hotter short flame from more violent collision between the flying particles and the atmosphere.
  -It might also be possible to generate a laser beam "tunnel". High-energy lasers ionize the air around the beam, heating the atmosphere and providing the plasma bolt with an easy passage to the target (see electrolaser).
  -Another laser-assisted plasma weapon approach for use in atmosphere is possible if the laser is powerful enough to blast the air out of the way, but having the plasma particles reach the target before the newly created vacuum channel collapses in on itself is a problem unless the weapon possesses sufficient power to either sustain the channel or the aforementioned "plasma particle beam" approach is used.
  -It may also be possible to encase a bolt of plasma in a capsule of some material, possibly a polymer. This would allow the plasma to reach a medium distance before the capsule wears out. However, such a material could also be used to block the plasma.
  
• A plasma round would glow very brightly due to blackbody radiation, leading to quick substantial energy loss. This might also represent a blinding hazard for the operator and bystanders. From basic physics, a 1 cm ball of plasma at 10,000 Kelvin (K) would be equal to a 180 kilowatt (kW) bulb.
• Many materials already exist that are highly resistant to plasma, reinforced carbon-carbon used on the Space Shuttle's nose cone for example; or the ceramic inserts used in bulletproof vests.
  

Some of these points can be solved by ER scifi handwavium, but the things in bold are kinda inherent to the design. Some solutions for the second one are proposed, but they all bank on 'if hypothetical X can somehow be achieved, then it might be possible'. And then there's the last issue, of course, and if ER armor is strong enough to shrug of stuff that'd be anti-tank grade in current RL... yeah.

I suppose we could go for the option colored in red, aka trap the plasma inside a shell that breaks on impact and which 'aims' the plasma jet to the target, but that sounds rather expensive, though more feasible than the other options presented there. I can think of a way to make a sort of shell that creates a tiny magnetic shield just inside itself to contain the plasma, and which on impact breaks so that the magnetic shield bends toward the target, but things like creating ball lightning plasma or iffy electrolaser-like designs sound implausible (then again, I didn't think an electrolaser would work well for reasons I stated when it was being made. But those issues weren't deemed problematic enough back then to halt the design, so I dunno. I guess we could make it work if we played fast and very loose with the practical limits of physics and engineering).

Based on the options presented above, which one do you think would be most practical/achievable using ER tech (note that I can put a science team on it if there's one that'd be perfect, but requires some R&D to get there).

Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?

Using automanips or...?

Yes, with automanips.

[Sean Mirrsen]

At the risk of compromising my own design - we don't need automanips, and we don't need a resistant shell. Tiny bluerad cell plus some superconducting wire will get you the bane of modern-day fusion research - a tokamak. Get some research done on field configurations that allow a circular ring of plasma to be maintained around a core, with no outer wall - this would yield us a throwable plasma disk saw. Stuff it into an easily-breakable aerodynamic disk shell for personal weapons (ship weapons can do without), fit it with a destruct mechanism to prevent the enemy from finding useful shards of blueraditite, and you got your poor man's plasma weapon.

There's basically no way to avoid using ammo with the plasma weapon design. May as well make the ammo a bit fancier if it means making the weapon itself cheaper and better understood.

[AoshimaMichio]

Say, do battle stims behave like christmas potions? Meaning do I have use it all at once or nothing at all? Because 5+/6- duration of effects is a bit too long for my preferences.
Would it be possible to dilute effects down, for example 2+/3-? Or even 1+/2-?

[Radio Controlled]

At the risk of compromising my own design - we don't need automanips, and we don't need a resistant shell. Tiny bluerad cell plus some superconducting wire will get you the bane of modern-day fusion research - a tokamak. Get some research done on field configurations that allow a circular ring of plasma to be maintained around a core, with no outer wall - this would yield us a throwable plasma disk saw. Stuff it into an easily-breakable aerodynamic disk shell for personal weapons (ship weapons can do without), fit it with a destruct mechanism to prevent the enemy from finding useful shards of blueraditite, and you got your poor man's plasma weapon.

There's basically no way to avoid using ammo with the plasma weapon design. May as well make the ammo a bit fancier if it means making the weapon itself cheaper and better understood.

Ha, but of course you would go with a tokamak instead of a stellerator. I'm on to you!

But for the actual idea, while the idea of throwing miniature fusion generators at people is inherently hilarious, I don't really think it'd work that well. For starters, if you're using a shell anyways to protect it from the atmosphere, you might as well forego the iffy 'field configurations that allow a circular ring of plasma to be maintained around a core, with no outer wall' and just use your outer shell to contain it. And really, if you're throwing a physical construct anyway, why not trap the plasma inside a hollow shell? It'd focus the plasma more, since inside a tokamak, it's spread out over the entire torus (i think?), while it'd be concentrated into a small sphere/prolate spheroid if you use a shell with coils in the inside to trap the plasma.

And I'm starting to wonder whether we should even bother with plasma weapons. If that wiki article is right, and plasma is easily shielded against, it might be more efficient to take the energy that would normally go into a plasma shot and instead use that energy in a different way (a big laser/PEW for example).

And either way, an automanip magical containment field has the advantage that it forces all of the plasma to go through the target and deliver its energy. If you don't use that, I can imagine a whole lot of it is lost to scatter or whatever on impact, regardless of what we use.

[Sean Mirrsen]

And either way, an automanip magical containment field has the advantage that it forces all of the plasma to go through the target and deliver its energy. If you don't use that, I can imagine a whole lot of it is lost to scatter or whatever on impact, regardless of what we use.

The idea is to make plasma weapons cheap. Like, cutting laser cheap. A mass of plasma delivers more destructive energy than an equivalent mass of gauss slug, and their starting state is the same. With blueraditite we have a potential source of abundant energy for compact applications.

Also, there is plasma, and there is plasma. Neutral plasma is just a really hot gas. Pick the right material to plasmarize though, and you get a highly chemically aggressive substance (it's stripped of all electrons after all) that is, on top of that, searing hot and with a very high heat capacity due to high density. Think real magma combined with Hollywood acid and turned into a compressed gas. It's just nasty. It's also hard to contain, even with magnetic fields.

You're right that the automanip forcefield is superior in that it forces the plasma to fully come in contact with the target. But in absence of space-magical forcefields, the next best thing is a dense cloud concentrated around a core. The problem with just using a shell is that the shell will break apart on impact, and the plasma will just erupt into a fireball. With a toroid magnetic field holding the plasma in a ring, the plasma won't scatter until the core itself is destroyed, and by then it'll have deposited at least half of its plasma into the target - that's not even accounting for the plasma itself spinning in the toroid. The aerodynamic shell is then simply designed to break - it is neither expensive like the plasma-containing one, nor a good source of plasma-resistant materials to the enemy, it's just there to stop the plasma from scattering to the winds.

And of course I went for the Tokamak.

If the design can be whittled down enough to compete with the cutting laser for cost-per-shot, we can just deploy them en masse - most of the cost for the original plasma projector's ammo is the battery cell to power the manipulator. With the "plasma disc" you'll just have a bluerad cell the size of maybe a grain of rice (it doesn't need to live long), some basic materials, and a regular gauss rifle mechanism handles the launching. Mass-producible plasma weapon. It won't have the same massive penetration, but it will defeat armor with similar ease (even if in smaller chunks), and be pretty good at taking out groups of enemies (via plasma fireball). If it can be made to work, of course.

[tryrar]

At that point, why not just forgo plasma entirely and throw around milligrams of contained antimatter?

[Nikitian]

Well then - finalize the suit, and transmit the schematics to Hephaestus for their use!

Spoiler: MCP-II recap (click to show/hide)

All Mk-II features and systems put into MCP-shell, plus wall-walking soles based on Nekarios's Doctor-augmented legs.
Price: 3 tokens
Upgrades available:
2 tokens - a maintenance-refillable small tank of fleshknitter, up to several.

[piecewise]

By several tokens. If you can figure out a way to handle the magnetism problem then even more, and it would make it more usable in the long term.

Thing is, I'm not sure if we can forego the magnetism problem. I mean, we could try to focus the plasma into a tight beam, but even then I don't think it would get very far in any appreciable atmosphere. I suspect it'd disperse too fast to be of use, except maybe very sort ranges (but that plasma stake kinda has that covered).
In fact, wikipedia has a page on plasma weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_weapon), which says:

Plasma weapons are theoretical, as they need more power than any handheld device could supply. If small portable fusion reactors are made, one potential source of weapons-grade plasma sources might be a direct tap on a fusion reactor, especially a dense plasma focus, since the natural yield of such a reactor is a hot high-speed plasma beam. Making real plasma weapons will need a major scientific breakthrough, as the concept of plasma-firing weapons is scientifically difficult, for various reasons:

• The technology to create plasma compact toroids[4] and particle beams is far too bulky for anything man-portable. In such a high-performance design, the plasma would have to be stored and created in highly focused magnetic bottles, such as those used in NASA's VASIMR rocket: this design has been suggested as a potential weapon design for future real human-engineered plasma weapons. For simpler designs based on plasma cutting torches, a designer might be able to heat the plasma with an arcjet, if his power source is strong enough.
• Using current technology, if a plasma beam was fired in a planetary atmosphere, it would quickly be stopped by atmospheric resistance and would make a short hot flame like a blow torch.
  
• The plasma shot out of a plasma weapon would tend to dissipate in the surrounding environment within about 50 centimeters from the gun, from thermal and/or electric pressure expansion, called blooming, unless:
  -The magnetic confinement bottle is extended all the way to the target. Modifications to this bottle could make the plasma home in on its target. On the other hand, magnetic fields of such strength could also be used to block the plasma.
  -The plasma is somehow made self-sustaining over a much longer time period as with ball lightning.
  -The particles are fired fast enough to reach a target before blooming occurs. This is then a particle beam more than a plasma shot (at least as much as any technical definition for such weapons exists). This would work for use outside atmosphere (i.e. in a space vacuum), but within an atmosphere would merely cause a hotter short flame from more violent collision between the flying particles and the atmosphere.
  -It might also be possible to generate a laser beam "tunnel". High-energy lasers ionize the air around the beam, heating the atmosphere and providing the plasma bolt with an easy passage to the target (see electrolaser).
  -Another laser-assisted plasma weapon approach for use in atmosphere is possible if the laser is powerful enough to blast the air out of the way, but having the plasma particles reach the target before the newly created vacuum channel collapses in on itself is a problem unless the weapon possesses sufficient power to either sustain the channel or the aforementioned "plasma particle beam" approach is used.
  -It may also be possible to encase a bolt of plasma in a capsule of some material, possibly a polymer. This would allow the plasma to reach a medium distance before the capsule wears out. However, such a material could also be used to block the plasma.
  
• A plasma round would glow very brightly due to blackbody radiation, leading to quick substantial energy loss. This might also represent a blinding hazard for the operator and bystanders. From basic physics, a 1 cm ball of plasma at 10,000 Kelvin (K) would be equal to a 180 kilowatt (kW) bulb.
• Many materials already exist that are highly resistant to plasma, reinforced carbon-carbon used on the Space Shuttle's nose cone for example; or the ceramic inserts used in bulletproof vests.
  

Some of these points can be solved by ER scifi handwavium, but the things in bold are kinda inherent to the design. Some solutions for the second one are proposed, but they all bank on 'if hypothetical X can somehow be achieved, then it might be possible'. And then there's the last issue, of course, and if ER armor is strong enough to shrug of stuff that'd be anti-tank grade in current RL... yeah.

I suppose we could go for the option colored in red, aka trap the plasma inside a shell that breaks on impact and which 'aims' the plasma jet to the target, but that sounds rather expensive, though more feasible than the other options presented there. I can think of a way to make a sort of shell that creates a tiny magnetic shield just inside itself to contain the plasma, and which on impact breaks so that the magnetic shield bends toward the target, but things like creating ball lightning plasma or iffy electrolaser-like designs sound implausible (then again, I didn't think an electrolaser would work well for reasons I stated when it was being made. But those issues weren't deemed problematic enough back then to halt the design, so I dunno. I guess we could make it work if we played fast and very loose with the practical limits of physics and engineering).

Based on the options presented above, which one do you think would be most practical/achievable using ER tech (note that I can put a science team on it if there's one that'd be perfect, but requires some R&D to get there).

Finally, how fast could we reasonably (aka not horribly expensive) get a magnetic field the size of a tennisball going (you can compare it to the speed of a plasma projector projectile if that's easier)?

Using automanips or...?

Yes, with automanips.

The electrolaser got away with it because there wasn't a lot of practical difference gameplay wise between it and the normal laser.

Hmm. This is a tricky thing, ain't it? The shell is probably the best alternative, but I have a sneaking suspition that it's gonna be pretty expensive and probably not that different in effectiveness or price over all. It might be better over all to ignore this as a technological dead end and focus on other, more viable technologies.

Say, do battle stims behave like christmas potions? Meaning do I have use it all at once or nothing at all? Because 5+/6- duration of effects is a bit too long for my preferences.
Would it be possible to dilute effects down, for example 2+/3-? Or even 1+/2-?

So the same stat boosts but lower time scales on both ends?

Currently no, watering them down won't work. But that sounds like something Heph could make, if you ask them to.

Well then - finalize the suit, and transmit the schematics to Hephaestus for their use!

Spoiler: MCP-II recap (click to show/hide)

All Mk-II features and systems put into MCP-shell, plus wall-walking soles based on Nekarios's Doctor-augmented legs.
Price: 3 tokens
Upgrades available:
2 tokens - a maintenance-refillable small tank of fleshknitter, up to several.

(I'd post that spoiler in their thread. Give em a good slap)

[Xantalos]

Are you gonna be on heph?

If/when they get around to waking me up eventually. What with the way things are going on ship I might be there sooner than I thought, but my eventual hope is that I can have a copy of me active on both Heph and the sword with a third in stasis on Heph. Cheesy as fuck, but if you'll accept it, I can do some interesting things for their troops...
.............
anarmyofflesh

[Radio Controlled]

I'm not sure we can make it really 'cheap' while still getting enough destructive power at lower levels. I'm leaning more in the direction of
anti-batlesuit weapon rather than anti-infantry for the moment, since a good laser or mini PSL or gauss design probably fills anti infantry better/more efficient. Though plasma bullets does sound cool, I must admit.
Maybe as an alternative to the gauss rifle or as alternative gauss/ rocket rifle/sibilus ammo.

And let's assume for a second that the hardware price and reliability for a plasma weapon are the same as for a good laser (which is generous towards the plasma design I think, but why not). Since a laser also works through applying heat (which is also the primary damaging component of a plasma weapon) we can then compare how much damage/penetration power you get for the same amount of energy (eg same sized bluerad shard) and determine if the slightly different damage type of plasma weighs up.
If not, we can just use a laser with same energy use and be better of. The point is that we shouldn't go for a plasma weapon because plasma is cool and exotic, but because it gives good bang per buck (or at least acceptable bang per buck, so that it having a bit different 'damage type' could come into play).

The problem with just using a shell is that the shell will break apart on impact, and the plasma will just erupt into a fireball. With a toroid magnetic field holding the plasma in a ring, the plasma won't scatter until the core itself is destroyed, and by then it'll have deposited at least half of its plasma into the target - that's not even accounting for the plasma itself spinning in the toroid. The aerodynamic shell is then simply designed to break - it is neither expensive like the plasma-containing one, nor a good source of plasma-resistant materials to the enemy, it's just there to stop the plasma from scattering to the winds.

Well, you are right that it would explode into a plasma fireball if it were just a regular container.
But as I alluded to, the idea is that while traveling, the plasma is contained in a (foot)ball shape, and once the shell hits it
cracks in such a way that the magnetic field lines form a thin cone to push the plasma out in a jet stream. Kinda like how in a
regular bomb the explosion goes everywhere, but a shaped charge funnels it into a focused jet. I'm not sure if it's possible to construct the
(electro?)magnets in such a  way that they'll create the correctly shaped field lines to concentrate the plasma and push it forward, but it
sounds much easier to build something like this than to get strong enough field lines to contain a plasma out of thin air (aka without an outer shell).
The shaped charge analogy is a rather apt one really, we could call it a 'shaped plasma charge' and it'd be pretty on the mark.

Here, I made some horrible drawings to illustrate the point. The lines show the magnetic containment lines, and thus how the plasma is shaped.
Note that after penetrating the armor, it might result in a spray of hot plasma everywhere depending on how far the field lines reach.
 ___
/     \
\___/


 ___   [
/     \ [
\___/ [



 __ [
|__>[
     [

 __[
|__>
    [

Hmm. This is a tricky thing, ain't it? The shell is probably the best alternative, but I have a sneaking suspition that it's gonna be pretty expensive and probably not that different in effectiveness or price over all. It might be better over all to ignore this as a technological dead end and focus on other, more viable technologies.

Yeah, I'm getting this feeling as well. However, if you'll humor me, I'm gonna look into it a little more. but if it indeed doesn't work out, I'm gonna drop it like it's hot.

So, going with the design layed out above for a solid shell to carry the plasma, what price range are we looking at here? Assume that the plasma is formed inside the gun, and then 'injected' into the shell, which is then closed up (a sliding lid or whatever) and fired.


Secondly, regardless of delivery system, how does the raw destructive power per kilojoule energy used of a decent laser compare to that of a plasma weapon