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Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO  (Read 2523751 times)

syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15735 on: April 12, 2015, 12:44:11 pm »

Quote from: Persus
There's a vodka that currently exist named Blue Sky (thank Youtube ads for that tidbit).

..Huh, and here I was referencing the type of methamphetamine.

Quote from: Persus
Kids, reproduction, having sex?
I've already explained why sex is pointless and inefficient, kids can be created artificially.

Although, I'm really primarily arguing for being botted while serving as an ARM operative.  If you're naive enough to believe that Steve will let you live afterward, you're naive enough to believe that you'll get a flesh body if you want.  The other option is to raise a child on the Sword, and frankly there's far more efficient methods of child abuse.

Quote from: Radio
Even if we disregard the second part, there is still the possibility it doesn't pan out. Maybe if one of your life goals is to accomplish something big long-term, but you don't achieve it due to always going for the short-term pleasure, then over time that displeasure/disappointment in yourself might 'overpower' the positive stimulus of the pleasure center activation. That said, this banks on the idea of other sources being able to directly overrule direct pleasure center stimulation, and I don't know enough about brain chemistry to assert this idea's plausibility.

I don't really know enough either, but I'm gonna guess that other sources can't overrule the pleasure center, because I don't feel bad about things when I'm happy.  At most, I feel bad enough beforehand that I can't enjoy whatever makes me happy, but I think that's more a case of the pleasure center being blocked/deciding not to fire, rather than stopped.

Quote from: Radio
Though, if your mastery of brain processes is even high enough, even if the above is the case, you might be able to disable whatever causes the displeasure. For the individual however, there's a risk: before we know all of the centers that you need to activate or disable to achieve permanent euphoria, you will need test subjects. If the above scenario plays out, these initial test subjects might go into a living hell after the initial euphoria. So for the individual, it's most logical to wait until the technology is perfected (assuming that's even possible). But if everybody did the most logical thing, the technology can't be perfected!

The nice thing is, if everyone were perfectly logical we'd all either be sociopaths (if logic is completely selfish) or live in a utopia (if logic is utilitarian).  In the former case, maximal happiness tech is irrelevant because everyone's evil anyway, and in the latter case, it's irrelevant because it's unnecessary (although you could get volunteers easily enough).

In the real world, there's way, way, way more stupid people who would do the illogical thing and accept the treatment when it's still risky.  Also, we don't have to be perfectly moral in the real world and can force people to test it.

Quote
Shock implants? Isn't that exactly what those are for?

Even the lowly mesor blocked those, for an entirely legitimate reason.  Even if PW said that the implants can't be jammed because he says so, someone could carve it out while something is happening on-ship that would prevent Steve from noticing (unless PW restricted himself from doing such events).

Also, Grate-32 would have killed us all.  Or at least the ones who were already alive.

The AM isn't super strong to prevent people messing around, though.  She's super strong to avoid dying to the Lord British Postulate.  We'd just kill her if she were killable, and she's actually plot important, so PW can't have that.

@Dorsi (Not sure what to quote >.<)

Kinetic amps have an upper limit on what they can do.  Even if they didn't, Heph wouldn't make a 3 kinetic amp, because you can already get one by stacking two normal amps, and because it would be so powerful that it would kill the user.

Also, this is type of thing that PW sees and responds to by naming a thread after your char's death warrant.  Fair warning.

Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15736 on: April 12, 2015, 01:02:03 pm »

Quote
I don't really know enough either, but I'm gonna guess that other sources can't overrule the pleasure center, because I don't feel bad about things when I'm happy.  At most, I feel bad enough beforehand that I can't enjoy whatever makes me happy, but I think that's more a case of the pleasure center being blocked/deciding not to fire, rather than stopped.

Yeah, our lack of knowledge really shows here. I mean, you give a RL example, but I can readily imagine that in the case of a constantly activated center, the situation might be different (that thing wasn't exactly meant to always be on).

Quote
The nice thing is, if everyone were perfectly logical we'd all either be sociopaths (if logic is completely selfish) or live in a utopia (if logic is utilitarian).  In the former case, maximal happiness tech is irrelevant because everyone's evil anyway, and in the latter case, it's irrelevant because it's unnecessary (although you could get volunteers easily enough).
In the real world, there's way, way, way more stupid people who would do the illogical thing and accept the treatment when it's still risky.  Also, we don't have to be perfectly moral in the real world and can force people to test it.

Sure, just pointing out the paradox of 'everyone should do X, it's the most rational thing. But if everyone acted rationally, X wouldn't be an option. In order for people to be even able to make the rational decision, you need irrational people.'
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Comrade P.

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15737 on: April 12, 2015, 01:14:02 pm »

Now that I got that two-handed sword Jim used, I gotta ask - do I roll Unconventional or Exotic for it? My guess it would be Uncon.
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15738 on: April 12, 2015, 01:15:49 pm »

Now that I got that two-handed sword Jim used, I gotta ask - do I roll Unconventional or Exotic for it? My guess it would be Uncon.

Dex for normal melee weapons.
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syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15739 on: April 12, 2015, 01:16:57 pm »

@Radio

Yup.  I'd agree that an always-on center probably has issues (And I said so earlier?).  I'm basing that primarily off what I've read about particularly hard drugs like meth and heroin, which are supposed to basically do what we're talking about currently.

As to the second bit... I don't see the paradox?  Even if some people irrationally avoid doing a rational thing, or irrationally make it possible, there's nothing stopping rational people from taking advantage.  There's the 'flaw' which means that since there's always some irrational people, it's impossible to make everyone happy, but that's no paradox- just a fact.

Also, Saint, who was technically what started this discussion, is a sociopath.  He doesn't much care about how tech could hurt others, only how it could benefit him.

@Comrade

Probably either uncon or dex+str.  PW has always flip-flopped on this; sometimes only unusual and technological weapons use uncon, sometimes all melee weapons.

It's definitely not exo though.  Exo is for controlling things through force of will, not force of arm.

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15740 on: April 12, 2015, 01:20:50 pm »

@Comrade

Probably either uncon or dex+str.  PW has always flip-flopped on this; sometimes only unusual and technological weapons use uncon, sometimes all melee weapons.

It's definitely not exo though.  Exo is for controlling things through force of will, not force of arm.

Okay. Hopefully it will be strength, because my dexterity isn't good at all. I'll try to act in a way it would be about strength rather than dexterity.

On an unrelated note, what exactly are you fighting right now in Aoshima's game?
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15741 on: April 12, 2015, 01:32:34 pm »

Quote
Yup.  I'd agree that an always-on center probably has issues (And I said so earlier?).  I'm basing that primarily off what I've read about particularly hard drugs like meth and heroin, which are supposed to basically do what we're talking about currently.

You did, just pointing out there might be additional problems outside of 'addiction effects' (aka not deriving same pleasure from same stimulus).

Quote
As to the second bit... I don't see the paradox?  Even if some people irrationally avoid doing a rational thing, or irrationally make it possible, there's nothing stopping rational people from taking advantage.  There's the 'flaw' which means that since there's always some irrational people, it's impossible to make everyone happy, but that's no paradox- just a fact.
Also, Saint, who was technically what started this discussion, is a sociopath.  He doesn't much care about how tech could hurt others, only how it could benefit him.

It's a paradox in that, in order to allowing people to make the rational decision, you need people making irrational decisions. So in a perfectly rational society, people will be barred from doing the rational thing, unless you have irrational people, aka not a perfectly rational society.

For any single person, it's not a paradox as much as a opportunity/tragedy/sad fact of life (choose what you like). But for the society, I'd say it is.
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Lenglon

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15742 on: April 12, 2015, 01:49:07 pm »

Prisoner's Dilemma
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15743 on: April 12, 2015, 01:52:00 pm »

Yeah, our lack of knowledge really shows here. I mean, you give a RL example, but I can readily imagine that in the case of a constantly activated center, the situation might be different (that thing wasn't exactly meant to always be on).

What about the classic example of the rat with two buttons to push, the food and the pleasure ones?

Even the lowly mesor blocked those, for an entirely legitimate reason.  Even if PW said that the implants can't be jammed because he says so, someone could carve it out while something is happening on-ship that would prevent Steve from noticing (unless PW restricted himself from doing such events).

Also, Grate-32 would have killed us all.  Or at least the ones who were already alive.

The AM isn't super strong to prevent people messing around, though.  She's super strong to avoid dying to the Lord British Postulate.  We'd just kill her if she were killable, and she's actually plot important, so PW can't have that.


At any rate, not really buying any of those lines of argument, but this is a somewhat unproductive what-if scenario anyway, so probably best to disregard my idle ranting.
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15744 on: April 12, 2015, 01:53:53 pm »

Prisoner's Dilemma

Not exactly I think (payoff matrix isn't really the same here, though we'd have to work it out in full to see consequences). Not everyone can be the guinea pig, for example. but it bears resemblances for sure.

Quote
What about the classic example of the rat with two buttons to push, the food and the pleasure ones?

I'd think humans are a bit more complex though (i don't think rats have sorrow at the end of their lives for ambitions unfulfilled, for example) so I'm not sure how well we can extrapolate results. The rat died in the end from malnutrition, no?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 01:56:49 pm by Radio Controlled »
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AoshimaMichio

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15745 on: April 12, 2015, 02:04:54 pm »

<snip>just like there's no reason to bother with killing the guy tending the science booth or killing Nyars, even though both are apparently human beings and entirely within our reach. <snip>

Ulrich has reason to kill Nyars, or at least hurt him. He might actually try it.
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spazyak

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15746 on: April 12, 2015, 02:05:21 pm »

Prisoner's Dilemma

Not exactly I think (payoff matrix isn't really the same here, though we'd have to work it out in full to see consequences). Not everyone can be the guinea pig, for example. but it bears resemblances for sure.

Quote
What about the classic example of the rat with two buttons to push, the food and the pleasure ones?

I'd think humans are a bit more complex though (i don't think rats have sorrow at the end of their lives for ambitions unfulfilled, for example) so I'm not sure how well we can extrapolate results. The rat died in the end from malnutrition, no?
about the rats. Their is proof that animals ca have ambitions and goal such as food, survival, and well...sex. so I would presume that the sex ambition would not have been fulfilled.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15747 on: April 12, 2015, 02:26:52 pm »

I'd think humans are a bit more complex though (i don't think rats have sorrow at the end of their lives for ambitions unfulfilled, for example) so I'm not sure how well we can extrapolate results. The rat died in the end from malnutrition, no?

I mean in terms of what it can override. And in the most commonly repeated form they say the rats starved to death, while Wikipedia says they died from exhaustion. Then there's this bit, in which we don't find out if humans would do the exact same thing, though the results seem to point to a positive conclusion. At the very least personal hygiene seems to decline. But actually finding out the truth of whether human beings behave exactly as rats in this situation would require a Nazi-style experiment that would necessarily injure human dignity, so I suppose we're unlikely to ever find out for sure.
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15748 on: April 12, 2015, 02:31:13 pm »

I'd think humans are a bit more complex though (i don't think rats have sorrow at the end of their lives for ambitions unfulfilled, for example) so I'm not sure how well we can extrapolate results. The rat died in the end from malnutrition, no?

I mean in terms of what it can override. And in the most commonly repeated form they say the rats starved to death, while Wikipedia says they died from exhaustion. Then there's this bit, in which we don't find out if humans would do the exact same thing, though the results seem to point to a positive conclusion. At the very least personal hygiene seems to decline. But actually finding out the truth of whether human beings behave exactly as rats in this situation would require a Nazi-style experiment that would necessarily injure human dignity, so I suppose we're unlikely to ever find out for sure.

All very interesting, but rather short term, as far as I can see.

And you're right about that last part. Wanna go start a secret immoral cult to find out?
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Xantalos

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC
« Reply #15749 on: April 12, 2015, 02:55:41 pm »

I can rent you guys one if you like.
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