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Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO  (Read 2534856 times)

Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11625 on: December 06, 2014, 04:19:31 am »

A nyars box for everyone would be a bit much. Hmmm.

Is there anything meta you guys want?

An official lift on the biotech player ban would be nice.

If not that, perhaps a list of the most useful or exciting things we missed on previous missions?
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11626 on: December 06, 2014, 04:25:34 am »

An official lift on the biotech player ban would be nice.

If not that, perhaps a list of the most useful or exciting things we missed on previous missions?

I would be highly amenable to this as well.
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Xantalos

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11627 on: December 06, 2014, 04:33:57 am »

Biotech player ban?
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11628 on: December 06, 2014, 04:45:41 am »

Biotech player ban?

Players can't design biotechnology in VR. Although I would understand PW's reluctance to let people mess with biotech, considering the rather loose biology at work in ER and genetic modification having do-anything powers.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 04:48:18 am by Harry Baldman »
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Gentlefish

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11629 on: December 06, 2014, 04:46:51 am »

perhaps a list of the most useful or exciting things we missed on previous missions?

I like this.

Xantalos

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11630 on: December 06, 2014, 04:51:03 am »

Huh.
Well, I can solve that!
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11631 on: December 06, 2014, 05:38:45 am »

Huh.
Well, I can solve that!

Ah, but can you explain how your biostuff is supposed to work, even at a shallow level?

Biotech player ban?

Players can't design biotechnology in VR. Although I would understand PW's reluctance to let people mess with biotech, considering the rather loose biology at work in ER and genetic modification having do-anything powers.

We already play fast and loose with physics and engineering a lot of the time, but I can see your point. It could be difficult to find the right balance between 'realistic explanation' and 'it just works as intended'.
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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11632 on: December 06, 2014, 06:20:59 am »

We already play fast and loose with physics and engineering a lot of the time, but I can see your point. It could be difficult to find the right balance between 'realistic explanation' and 'it just works as intended'.

Problem is, in biotech the realistic explanations tend to be convoluted and difficult to follow without highly specialized knowledge, probably more so than even in other forms of engineering, considering that it is hacked and repurposed complex nanotechnology, and the complexity of this nanotechnology tends to open up a lot of room for unforeseen consequences and fun stuff, like having a single nonfunctional protein in your organism causing you to lose your thumbs (plus some other stuff) and die at age 21, for example. Invariably one can't really come up with consequences for a lot of the stuff that could happen without extremely liberal amounts of pulling things out of one's ass, plus it's hardly reasonable to engage piecewise in debates on exactly why the biochemistry of your latest invention is a bit wonky or, conversely, why it totally works, and if you're a biologist and have lots of biolingo at your disposal, you'd have technobabble supremacy over piecewise in that regard, at least until he does a bit more research on the subject specifically to combat this sort of thing.

Of course, on the flip side, the unforeseen consequences allow for very easy balancing of any genemods you care to come up with, and probably fit the expected results of what would happen if one guy went into VR and started wildly messing with, say, genetic stuff. Would involve a lot of taking piecewise at his word, and would probably be a bit creatively and mentally taxing on his part to think of plausible-sounding rebuttals to overly sensible and uncommonly functional proposals.

In any case, only way I could see VR genemodding working is if either piecewise takes the players at their word, which I find rather undesirable, or the players take piecewise at his word when he just makes things up (possibly rolling for consequence severity), which I think would be pretty funny, but would make piecewise's tinkering review process much more involved than "sure, I guess that works" until "wait, that breaks the game, better not allow that".
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 07:03:31 am by Harry Baldman »
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11633 on: December 06, 2014, 07:04:28 am »

Full disclaimer: I am a biochemist by trade (or rather, in learning, with a bachelor's degree and working for a masters), so this shit is pretty much what I do on a daily basis. So my view is probably not very representative. Sue me, I guess.


Quote
Problem is, in biotech the realistic explanations tend to be convoluted and difficult to follow without highly specialized knowledge, probably more so than even in other forms of engineering, considering that it is hacked and repurposed complex nanotechnology, and the complexity of this nanotechnology tends to open up a lot of room for unforeseen consequences and fun stuff, like having a single nonfunctional protein in your organism causing you to lose your thumbs (plus some other stuff) and die at age 21, for example. Invariably one can't really come up with consequences for a lot of the stuff that could happen without extremely liberal amounts of pulling things out of one's ass, plus it's hardly reasonable to engage piecewise in debates on exactly why the biochemistry of your latest invention is a bit wonky or, conversely, why it totally works, and if you're a biologist and have lots of biolingo at your disposal, you'd have technobabble supremacy over piecewise in that regard, at least until he does a bit more research on the subject specifically to combat this sort of thing.

Oh yeah, this stuff can be ridiculously complicated. I genetically modified organisms before (got a few mutant Arabidopsis in the backyard, heh) and that shit can be incredibly complex, perhaps often more so than other engineering due to the scale and intricate complexity/interlockedness of these kind of systems. But even then, I think it should be possible to find a right balance, but it might take a little while and be less obvious than for regular gun-making. And hey, when one programs stuff on a wristpad or whatever, one only has to say what it's supposed to do and how it works in a very basic and top-down way, so there's some precedent.


Quote
Of course, on the flip side, the unforeseen consequences allow for very easy balancing of any genemods you care to come up with, and probably fit the expected results of what would happen if one guy went into VR and started wildly messing with, say, genetic stuff. Would involve a lot of taking piecewise at his word, and would probably be a bit creatively and mentally taxing on his part to think of plausible-sounding rebuttals to overly sensible and uncommonly functional proposals.
In any case, only way I could see VR genemodding working is if either piecewise takes the players at their word, which I find rather undesirable, or the players take piecewise at his word when he just makes things up (possibly rolling for severe consequence severity), which I think would be pretty funny, but would make piecewise's tinkering review process much more involved than "sure, I guess that works" until "wait, that breaks the game, better not allow that".

In the end, what it does in-game and its cost and downsides are all what really matter, the rest is fun world-building and window dressing. And PW has the council to help him with pure balancing, and I'm always available to try and see how plausible something looks (and we have others to help in that regard as well).

I think there are indeed some potential pitfalls which we shouldn't be blind to, but overall I think the risk they pose is reasonable compared to the large amount of potential fun we could get out of it.



Unrelated: congratulations to syvarris for getting the lucky 3000th edit on the wiki. And a general thank you to all those that keep the wiki updated. Without you guys, it wouldn't be half as useful and complete as it is!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 08:42:08 am by Radio Controlled »
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swordsmith04

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11634 on: December 06, 2014, 12:29:31 pm »

A nyars box for everyone would be a bit much. Hmmm.

Is there anything meta you guys want?

Maybe explain how the Color Solid Dash system worked?

syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11635 on: December 06, 2014, 01:47:55 pm »

Quote from: Harry Baldman
if you're a biologist and have lots of biolingo at your disposal, you'd have technobabble supremacy over piecewise in that regard, at least until he does a bit more research on the subject specifically to combat this sort of thing.

See, I disagree with this.  Sure, this is perfectly true, but it doesn't work as an argument against biotech.  A lot of Pyrodesu's posts, for example, basically have a bunch of high-level technobabble that PW basically just says "Okay... sure.  I trust you." without really understanding a lot of the underlying physics.  This type of thing already happens, and will likely continue to happen in every variant of tinker (except programming, because nobody ever specifies programming details)

Quote from: Harry Baldman
In any case, only way I could see VR genemodding working is if either piecewise takes the players at their word, which I find rather undesirable, or the players take piecewise at his word when he just makes things up (possibly rolling for consequence severity), which I think would be pretty funny, but would make piecewise's tinkering review process much more involved than "sure, I guess that works" until "wait, that breaks the game, better not allow that".

I dislike the idea of random rolling in any form of tinker.  It makes things much less reliable, and dependant on random chance more than the merit of the idea itself.  Remember that LESHO chaingun (a terrible idea) one guy had wanted to make?  What if he had rolled basically perfectly on the design, making it into a feasible weapon, while Sean's Spectr (One of the best Tinker weapons ever made, IMO) rolled really poorly, ruining it?  What would that accomplish?

Also, the concept of taking "PW at his word when he just makes things up" will not give balanced results.  I'm a pretty decent tinker, adept at making unbalanced things, and I don't even have an extensive grasp of physics or engineering.  I'm just good at turning PW's word on itself, until he says something that allows me to make an OP item. 

Quote from: swordsmith04
Maybe explain how the Color Solid Dash system worked?

There's still plenty of artifacts around that had that system.  Pyro (or was it Kisame?) said that there's certain artifacts that are marked as very, very dangerous.  If PW revealed which ones, people would probably stop playing with them, and then we would be less likely to maim ourselves.

Do you think PW is likely to do that?



Just for the record: I vote for a lift on the Biotech bans!

AoshimaMichio

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11636 on: December 06, 2014, 02:08:54 pm »

Quote from: swordsmith04
Maybe explain how the Color Solid Dash system worked?

There's still plenty of artifacts around that had that system.  Pyro (or was it Kisame?) said that there's certain artifacts that are marked as very, very dangerous.  If PW revealed which ones, people would probably stop playing with them, and then we would be less likely to maim ourselves.

Do you think PW is likely to do that?
Actually I asked this before and PW said it's up Pyro if he wants to reveal details of the system.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11637 on: December 06, 2014, 02:59:16 pm »

@syvarris: Your analogy with the gun designs doesn't really work because of a crucial detail - genetic modification is fundamentally different from basic weapons design because genetic modification is based on introducing externally-devised changes to a highly complex, not fully understood (not by the player, anyways) system and hoping that they work out in your favor - even when they should, there is always a considerable chance that they will not, and that they will not in highly unpredictable ways. See example of nonfunctioning protein robbing a person of thumbs (but not fingers) and causing several other abnormalities. Then there's variable gene expression, quirks with the proteins in question, all manner of hideously complex issues that could arise when dealing with a system as complex and based on coordinated functioning of virtually all tissues as a human being, that kind of thing. There has to be a random element in genemodding, especially when treading new ground, since there is no realistic way to come up with logical objections to a particular design. And thus, where no knowledge can be had, randomness must take hold. The roll could only be made to determine initial problems with genetic designs, and then corrections can be performed, though if those involve additional modding, one could roll for those as well.

There's just so many unknown factors (to the designer - the VR, if one allows genemods to be designed in it, will have fully modeled the resulting DNA topology, predicted resulting expression, epigenetic effects, likely folding of proteins and similar things, although a fun variation would be that VR does not do this, at least not perfectly, and there may be unforeseen side effects if you use it to create a genemod) involved that they may as well be random. Otherwise genemodding becomes a do-anything method, only limited by the upper limits of nanotechnology, which are, to be frank, rather lofty when properly applied. And if you want your genemodding to do virtually anything, why not just walk up to the Doctor and ask for a special treatment to be performed with his space magic?

Although I do concede the point about that whole fallibility of the GM thing, hence why the rolling (for genemods and nothing else, I will stress), in my opinion, becomes more necessary. Sometimes you'll luck out and things will work as intended without much issue (probably more likely with simpler mods), and sometimes that spiffy feature suite you encoded in your DNA will just plain kill you horribly or inflict spongiform encephalopathy upon you when you try to test it in real conditions.

Should note, however, that just because something already happens and will continue to happen, doesn't mean it's ultimately a good thing, however. I'm quite the proponent of the idea that if a GM doesn't know, then the clear answer is to roll for it to attain certainty. Possibly without revealing it to the player in question. Might make field testing and prototyping more relevant if applied to all esoterically physical inventions as well, anyway.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 03:10:07 pm by Harry Baldman »
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sambojin

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11638 on: December 06, 2014, 03:09:16 pm »

Well, I'm pretty sure my family is getting me fairly generic Christmas cards with money inside. That's actually what I want. Same as in ER. 3-5 tokens would be perfect.

Or, ummmm......

"All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth."
As well as every other bit of my head attached and in working order. Preferably with my head attached to my body as well, although that is semi-optional.
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swordsmith04

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11639 on: December 06, 2014, 03:15:49 pm »

Quote from: swordsmith04
Maybe explain how the Color Solid Dash system worked?

There's still plenty of artifacts around that had that system.  Pyro (or was it Kisame?) said that there's certain artifacts that are marked as very, very dangerous.  If PW revealed which ones, people would probably stop playing with them, and then we would be less likely to maim ourselves.

Do you think PW is likely to do that?

I'm not asking to be told what any specific artifacts do, just how the classification system works. I'm well aware that every artifact in-game is from the CSD system. As Aoshima said, PW is perfectly fine with us finding out how it worked now that we aren't using the system for new artifacts anymore. I asked because Pyro doesn't seem very forthcoming, if he hasn't outright forgotten/missed it entirely. I'm not particularly interested in custom biomods, since I'm A: not really that creative, and B: not interested in letting the Doctor do anything more than necessary to my character(s). I trust the Doctor less than I trust a UWM Sod not to shoot me.
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