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Author Topic: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO  (Read 2547763 times)

Devastator

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11250 on: November 20, 2014, 03:54:14 pm »

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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11251 on: November 20, 2014, 03:58:05 pm »

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11252 on: November 20, 2014, 04:22:42 pm »

Space Magic appears to have an unusual power jump over other weaponry, but I'd also put out that 10+ token con weapons have been fired offensively exactly once.  There's simply no standard for comparison here.

Please note that that character is still generally an amp user.


What, Lars?  No he isn't.  He's got one amp he's used a few times on a specialty mission.  He has a +2/3 in using it compared to a +2 in Con.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11253 on: November 20, 2014, 04:28:25 pm »

How would you handle it?

The Amp Specialist aesthetically and from a mechanical standpoint seems like he'd be a glass cannon, since they're bound to a wheelchair and barely responsive in any way other than violent space magic (though maybe they do charity work building houses in their spare time, who knows). Minmaxed into oblivion for offense, in fact. So probably my answer would be to let them keep the shitload of will points they probably have, but limit their multitasking skills severely so that they can do only one thing at a time, or maybe just limit the defensive potential of amp use. Make it so they can't float around without being defenseless at that moment, or set one guy's guts on fire while screwing the head off another one, or maybe just make it so defending yourself with an amp is a very impractical thing to do.

Also, like I said, amp-sight, without knowing the Big Ugly Terrible Truth, sounds like a cheap asspull to me, as it is an unexplained method through which Amp Specialists circumvent the human limitations of the amp, in that you need sensory ID of a target or at least an idea of their location to target them in the first place. So I wouldn't keep that as a thing that's possible, given how cheap it sounds from a gameplay perspective, and keep just their limited human senses as their method of orientation. And maybe even not limited human senses, but give them cameyes or sonars or something of that nature, depending on their readiness when deployed.

These limitations - frailty and inability to multitask (or at least limited defensive abilities) - leave the Amp Specialist still very powerful, since space magic is still extremely powerful, and he's got a practically unlimited supply of it, but also probably dependent on support from their squad, since while burninating hostiles they can't protect themselves and vice versa, and their bodies are atrophied enough that a stiff wind could snap them in half. It makes them actual combat specialists, while the Amp Specialist we saw on Hephaestus is an island, tactically speaking, with no need for support of any kind, at least not for the immediate engagement they're in, and that makes them perilously boring and annoying to deal with.

And if you feel that would make them too easy to deal with, well, that brings me to the next idea, which is the abandonment of cinematic tactics (swinging heat-blades, throwing shit at people, other visually impressive shenanigans) and going for the best effort-to-result ratios in attacks (like boiling somebody's medulla oblongata or raising their heart's temperature by some sixty kelvins). It seems kind of weird that people who've been trained (I presume) in the use of amps by professionals would operate in that manner, at least to me. I mean, pretty much every piece of advice given by the AM in terms of amp use has been categorically against this kind of nonsense. It makes sense for heatblades and stuff like that to appear in convict-performed overshots, since they're not expected to know any better and their enthusiasm often makes them more likely to use maneuvers inefficiently, but I can't see that same sort of naive enthusiasm in a guy who's almost literally been honed into a living weapon by a vicious totalitarian regime.

Then again, maybe they just really like their jobs a lot and have a flair for the dramatic, and are really a good approximation of Stacy put through military training. I don't know.

As for demigod friendly NPCs, I probably would scale back their demigodly natures. Not make them absurdly powerful, but perhaps reasonably powerful. The AM doesn't need to be an inhuman amp demigoddess with 30-something missions under her belt, stunning good looks and a seductive aura of deadly competence to keep players in line, maybe just somebody good enough to have a matter conversion amp and a mass manipulation amp, plus a propensity toward snark, a bit of common sense and a tendency to not suffer fools gladly. The Doctor, similarly, doesn't have to be a horrible eldritch being, since he'd quite frankly be way more intimidating if he was just a guy who's really good at what he does this entire time. I don't think it'd make them less interesting as characters, though that's really how I would handle it, and to be fair, for the Doctor the whole eldritch being thing seems way more relevant to the role he fills than the amp demigoddess thing seems for the AM, though once again that could just be the way we haven't found out how the AM fits into the bigger picture.

Of course, I'm just working off what I know. ER's universe, history and the core concept of space magic are still largely a mystery to all but a couple people who you've told the Big Ugly Terrible Truth to (at least that's what I assume you've told them to some extent). Maybe it all makes sense, as I've mentioned, and I'd probably believe you if you said it did if the whole truth is known.

How do we reign in the power of the high end character?

Or, let me put it to you like this: is it the problem that characters are superpowered, or is it that only certain ones are and they always seem to be the most useful. Ie Harry, did you dislike the Amp Specialist inherently, as an idea, or because it was an enemy that ordinary soldiers and players couldn't fight, one that basically had to be combated by Jim and Miya and their ilk?

Because if it's the first, you're kinda out of luck. The tech is there and both sides are gonna keep using and improving it, especially now. By the time the war ends, in whatever way it does, we're gonna be using artifact level equipment and battles are going to seem very odd in hindsight.

But if it's the second, then that might be exactly what you want, since it will mean that soldiers and average people will have a much better chance of being able to take out major threats.

It's not a problem at all that player characters are superpowered - they clambered through the ranks and earned their tokens fair and square - or that some characters are very powerful (the Doctor I'd hold up as a positive example). The Amp Specialist I dislike because there's an unsubtle undertone of cheapness to his abilities, he's beefed up beyond any form of reason without any form of (non-fluff, I know he probably doesn't like being filled with IVs and catheters, or looks forward to them being reinserted when he hovers out of his wheelchair and spreads his arms in a dramatic gesture, unless he's actually Stacy as previously mentioned and can't help being utterly chipper on the inside) drawback for it. Same for the AM. The problem is that there's no real rhyme or reason to fighting the Amp Specialist, there's just leveling enough firepower his way (and unlocking secret forbidden techniques through the power of seeing someone you sorta like die) until it feels like he's had enough (and the moment is suitably dramatic) and we've all learned a lesson today and also filled up at least three volumes with the big fight. Am I making sense here?

On another note, I'm not quite sure how people are taking away from this that high-powered player characters are somehow wrong and awful. There's, like, five of them who actually do much of anything anymore, and I'm not sure Miyamoto properly counts, since he's very courteously taken to administrative work, only two synthflesh people are actually doing balance-relevant stuff for any length of time (Auron and Pancaek, and both of them are fairly humble in their abilities), Xan's crippled until he kickstarts himself a decompensator and people with MK3s are only really distinguished by the fact that they can fly. I was just saying I really find it funny and inspiring when high-power player characters get mutilated, mess things up or ideally die horribly, especially if less powerful people are nearby and they immediately flip out, and came up with a further rationale extrapolated from Sean's interesting guess on the viewpoint. And then my seething hatred of the Amp Specialist and all he represents took hold of my fragile mind.
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11254 on: November 20, 2014, 04:36:23 pm »

What I think Harry is trying to say about the Amp specialist: make him less a Dragonball Z villain that just needs enough episodes of screaming and power-upping and finding the magic of friendship in order to beat him.

Instead, make it more a complex enemy that has strengths and weaknesses, that can utterly destroy you if you go about it badly but is quite manageable if you do it smartly and play to your advantages, and his disadvantages.

Sound about right Harry?

Quote
And if you feel that would make them too easy to deal with, well, that brings me to the next idea, which is the abandonment of cinematic tactics (swinging heat-blades, throwing shit at people, other visually impressive shenanigans) and going for the best effort-to-result ratios in attacks (like boiling somebody's medulla oblongata or raising their heart's temperature by some sixty kelvins). It seems kind of weird that people who've been trained (I presume) in the use of amps by professionals would operate in that manner, at least to me. I mean, pretty much every piece of advice given by the AM in terms of amp use has been categorically against this kind of nonsense. It makes sense for heatblades and stuff like that to appear in convict-performed overshots, since they're not expected to know any better and their enthusiasm often makes them more likely to use maneuvers inefficiently, but I can't see that same sort of naive enthusiasm in a guy who's almost literally been honed into a living weapon by a vicious totalitarian regime.

When it comes to players: I've been trying to play Miya as this, aka doing things the efficient way instead of the 'cool' way. Problem is that before I often got an overshot when trying to do something, and since I have a decomp I haven't really been on a mission yet. And finally, we run the risk of making things a tad bit boring, so a little flair is still a good thing I suppose.

for npc's though, if they all did this, it'd be a lot of non-blockable non-dodgable instakills. PW is cautious about doing that to his players too much I suspect.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 04:40:51 pm by Radio Controlled »
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Lenglon

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11255 on: November 20, 2014, 04:45:15 pm »

*inevitably.

FTFY.
Cheaper decomps and introducing cummulative exhaustion penalties for actions to grind away at the bonuses of high-end players is what I'd do to change things on player balance.

The Amp Specialist is BS because he doesn't die to instant-death. I'd strip his extrasensory BS and instantaneous reaction speed, to be replaced with additional efficiency and lethality of attacks. have him generally be hidden, bunkered down somewhere, using his teammates and cameras to aim via a video feed with GPS synchronization (or similar results). Make it a mandatory stealth mission of "if the camera sees you, you instant-die" until you can find him and kill him, but killing him wouldn't be THAT hard, just need to surprise him... which you'll be doing anyway unless you're going to let him instant-kill you.
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Toaster

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11256 on: November 20, 2014, 04:52:40 pm »

I like that idea.  Trading near-ESP detection ability for the ability to precisely target at much greater ranges than a player would be is an interesting ability.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11257 on: November 20, 2014, 05:09:39 pm »

What I think Harry is trying to say about the Amp specialist: make him less a Dragonball Z villain that just needs enough episodes of screaming and power-upping and finding the magic of friendship in order to beat him.

Instead, make it more a complex enemy that has strengths and weaknesses, that can utterly destroy you if you go about it badly but is quite manageable if you do it smartly and play to your advantages, and his disadvantages.

Sound about right Harry?

About right, with some nuance and a lot of waffling lost in translation.

for npc's though, if they all did this, it'd be a lot of non-blockable non-dodgable instakills. PW is cautious about doing that to his players too much I suspect.

I suppose they wouldn't be entirely impossible to dodge, depending on whether one can focus on a moving point with an amp or it's just a static location. And also that an Amp Specialist could probably in that event only kill one person at a time in direct conflict. As for blocking, that's probably possible with automanipulators or using the same defensive techniques the Amp Specialist uses on yourself - not easy by any means, but also not impossible.

In addition, Amp Specialists are few and far between as far as I can tell, and people who encounter them probably would have the will and the way to protect themselves, provided they were properly briefed and knew what they were going into. Or robots could just put their braincases (and average people their actual brains) in unusual places and orientations to avoid this issue, as an example.

The problem here is, it's not that instakilling people with amps is something we cannot do or should not do - there's no Manton effect at work here. It's been actively stated that this is the most efficient and reliable way to murder people, and that you don't use magic for showing off in the first place if you're hoping to actually get good at it. That can of worms is wide open, it's just conveniently ignored much of the time.

And yeah, Lenglon pretty much hits the nail on the head here. That is, to me, the Amp Specialist that should exist, rather than the confusing lore-busting DBZ fellow we actually met.

Bywords of space magic basically are: armor is useless, no one is safe, awareness and stealth are key. And if you're a giant robot, good luck!
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Execute/Dumbo.exe

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11258 on: November 20, 2014, 06:30:29 pm »

Hmmm.
I thought about a system where as you level up, you go to higher and higher rolls, from 1 to 6 to 1 to 20 or something. With bonuses slightly diluted, so higher level players would have a higher chance of not getting a overshoot or a critical failure, for example.

I was thinking it could either be the amount of missions you could do or the amount of points invested into a certain skill or stat, but the second method of it would be a nightmare for PW as he would have to remember exactly at which point level it went up a notch, and even then it wouldn't fix much, really.

Sounded better in my head, honest.
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piecewise

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11259 on: November 20, 2014, 06:31:15 pm »


[Drinking game grows closer]

Parisbre56

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11260 on: November 20, 2014, 06:42:29 pm »

@make it stealth argument: You have to remember that stealth is really hard to pull off in an RTD, at least in my experience. Especially when every sod and every corner has a camera. Every enemy would be an assault rifle wielding Medusa.

syvarris

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11261 on: November 20, 2014, 07:31:56 pm »

I agree with Devestator's statement, although I think it got lost in the sea of other posts.

A lot of people with really high tier stuff have a weird form of plot armor surrounding them.  Endurance rolls are modified by equipement like Mk.III exoskeletons... but those rolls are used for all damage rolls, not just physical 'how tired/tough is your body' stuff.  This means that when someone who's a newb gets caught in a burst of shrapnel, if they roll a one they catch a high velocity pebble in the forehead.  In contrast, if, say, Feyri got caught in that burst and rolled a one, it would be modified to a three at minimum.  She'd catch the pebble in the shin, and it would have less effect because she's synthflesh.  As Dev said, it's double counting a bonus.

This is even worse since armor is apparently also counted; Remember when the BEEEESS guy (Dubley?) got lasered and shot by lots of people?  PW said his longcoat had actually modified his endurance roll, keeping him from being shot in the head.  Presumably, even after that, his armor absorbed a lot of the damage that hit his torso, so it was double counted (Not to mention the fact that it effectively protected his head).

Honestly, I'd prefer it if armor didn't magically change the path of bullets/lasers, and was just a realistic reduction of damage.  It would also increase the lethality for high-level people, which isn't a bad thing IMO.

Devastator

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11262 on: November 20, 2014, 07:43:22 pm »

' not as in "seduce the prisoner". '

Someone, provide me with a picture.
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Execute/Dumbo.exe

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11263 on: November 20, 2014, 07:44:57 pm »

I already have the best picture hehehehehuhuhuuhuhuhuuuuuuu
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IronyOwl   But Kyuubey can more or less be summed up as "You didn't ask."
15:52   IronyOwl   Whereas Dungbeetle is closer to "Fuck you."

Xantalos

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Re: Einsteinian Roulette OOC
« Reply #11264 on: November 20, 2014, 09:34:07 pm »

Relevant to the discussion about amp specialists:

((Don't start giving people ideas. Otherwise there will be a dust mite with a matter converter amp running around.))

((Actually, I did have the idea for what I think would be a pretty good treatment for a 'pure amp user', as in, somebody who does nothing but amp all day and amp all night. Essentially, make them into an armored, supersized scout eye with a brain placed inside of an armored case, fitted with cameras that offer a full 4 pi steradian view of their surroundings. They could fly about, see everything around them (possibly with a great many sensors, including radar, sonar, infrared and more) and probably use amps very effectively due to having a great field and depth of vision, a human brain and quite a lot of mobility, presumably, not to mention being of small size and therefore difficult to hit and capable of using a great number of avenues of attack.

In addition, they, unlike humanoid amp users, would lack the necessary tells for somebody to determine that the flying robot is actually the one frying/smashing/gravitating everything.

In other news, I got a 0 on that test. Yay.))
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