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[Beirus]

I bet if PW does make a "Limbo" thread, some people will be dying to get in it.

[Yoink]

I bet if PW does make a "Limbo" thread, some people will be dying to get in it.

...Oh wow, I think that one actually caused me physical pain.

[Toaster]

*rimshot*

[kj1225]

The Limbo thing actually sounds pretty cool.

And I would punch you for that pun if I was near you.

[Beirus]

The funny part is that I meant people would actually try to die to be in Limbo for a while.

[syvarris]

@Radio

Spoiler: About robots and Organics (click to show/hide)

Why yes, that is indeed very important! Cause it means you are arguing against a proposal I no longer fully support due to the emergence of new information (I try to update my opinions when new facts come to light). Proof:

There are several reasons for still using full organic sods (next to robosods, of course):

I know that robosods have superior capabilities one-on-one to organic ones, we agree on that, I'm saying we shouldn't only rely on them.

Doing what you do makes sense when trying to 'win' an argument, but otherwise, you're just making things confusing. We are on the same side here! It's just an optimization issue at this point. Your proposal, of having a 3-1 robot-flesh sod ratio is perfectly acceptable for me (though I think we should do some VR testing to determine the optimal ratio).

Well... okay then.  I misinterpreted those two things, respectively that they said 'next to upgraded robobodies with jumpjets', and 'We can't use mostly robosods because there might be problems'.  I evidently did detect that your argument wasn't quite matching up with what I was arguing against, because I put that disclaimer there. 

I was trying to make sure that, if we were on the same side, we wouldn't keep arguing, but if we weren't, you could just say 'yes, that's what I'm saying' and continue on as it was.

And yes, I definitely think we should do VR testing.  The 3-to-1 was more just saying 'mostly robosods'.

But if you are shipping to backwater planets with rebel forces in they're infancy, using flesh sods means they can maintain them using real people food, and repair them using regular doctors. For robosods, you need special braincase liquid mix, and specific spare parts and the know-how to do it. Not a problem for well-supplied or well organized allies, but for others it could be. You were referring to the base cost of maintaining and repairing, I was talking about the complexity of it.

I'm not really sure about the feasibility of shipping sods to guerilla forces, but okay, yes, flesh sods would be better for that.  When you said 'allies' I kinda always assumed military allies that actually had territory and supply lines and everything, and would be being given armor and aircraft as well.  Basically a full army.  I suppose most of our allies will be guerillas though, at least in the beginning.

No, go read it again. You are giving a list of advantages that robosods have. Thing is, I never disputed those things, and I'm well aware of them. So again, what are you even trying to prove here? Just stating the obvious to ensure we're on the same page? If so, you should say as much, cause now it's like you are trying to 'prove you're right' by repeating things all parties involved already know and that supposedly favor your side, just to reinforce the idea that your side is 'right' to the audience (a well known debating trick).

I really don't feel like going back and reading it again.  Sorry.

I thought you were disputing some of them, or were at least trying to come up with excuses to justify using fleshsods, when it seemed utterly obvious that robosods are wholly superior.  Since it seemed you disagreed, I was listing out all the facts, in the hopes that either A.you would disagree and argue them with me, or B.you would accept them as true and switch your opinion to robosods being superior.

I did not realize that you were arguing the same basic thing as me.

Spoiler: About amount of complexity (click to show/hide)

Nope. I may have not been entirely clear here, or maybe I should've given more examples there. Point is, I think we should make sure the different kinds of sods we use have clear, distinct uses, with some but not too much overlap.

Okay, the confusion here was that I thought you were saying the overlap we'd gain by having both robo and flesh sod grunts with the same capabilites was bad, and therefore we shouldn't have robosod grunts.  You say later that you want overlap in Tier.1, with both flesh and robosods of similar performance, and I agree with that.  I also agree that we shouldn't have overlap in the higher tiers- having both MK.III flesh sods, and jetpack robosods would be bad.

Here you say what I was hoping you would, and it proves that people like you or me have no problem with tracking details like these to make other's job easier and to get the most out of our assets. But consider this: during Hep defense, I used the wiki to exactly say what sods where deployed where. There were no sods in a certain bunker that got destroyed, even though pw's description said so. When I asked about this, he said 'I don't really know where all those sods are'. Even though it was perfectly visible on the wiki. Or how he didn't see the location of the airfield on the map I made, leading to confusion.

So you see, even if you did the work yourself, there might still be too much complexity. Which is why I'm saying we should try to keep things clear and not (unnecessarily perhaps?) complex.

You raise a good point, but the wiki was still pretty new back then, and PW wasn't used to using it.  Furthermore, IIRC the defense's page was a bit of a clusterf-  ...mess.  That wasn't your fault- that mission overall was like that, for everyone.  In the future, stuff should be easier to organize in a readable manner.  Our current mission pages... aren't a good example of that, but it wouldn't be difficult to change them to be more useful as a reference.  Especially if I were actually assigned that as a duty.

Spoiler: About the debate itself (click to show/hide)

((Oooh!  Now this is interesting! ))

A lot of this is rooted in my own deeper problems, and if you want me to try to explain them for you, I can do that.  For now though, I'll just explain this stuff.

If you know you are using a logical fallacy, why bother using it? Unlike, say, GWG, you know what you are doing when using conversational tomfoolery like this and that you let yourself get dragged away with these debates. You know yourself enough to recognize it.

My natural method of arguing (I'm not naturally capable of holding a fair debate with most people- it takes willful effort), is laden with fallacies, misdirections, 'cheating', and other things.  I usually in these arguments have to edit them out, and I decided to just leave that one in with a disclaimer pointing out that it wasn't an actual point.  I don't remember why now, but I did.  Maybe I thought it was funny.

But exactly like GWG you seem unable to rise above such things and just try to have a interesting discussion. I know you can do better, so why not try to? Unless you really just want some back-and-forth for the sport of it

Yes, I do enjoy arguing for the express purpose of fighting.  To be perfectly honest, that's why I do most of these things- I can set the sod ratios to whatever I feel like, unless Pyro steps in, at which point I can debate with him.  Or stepping in and discussing someone's tinker devices, which is basically the same thing.  They'll design something, and if I don't step in it'll just fail and be forgotten.  If the design had any merit, I can fix it myself later.  Or if they don't forget it, then they'll still have to pass it by the Heph crew, at which point I can tear it apart.  From a logical perspective, these arguments are entirely worthless for any material reason.

That being said, I do empathize with (most) people, and dislike hurting them.  So, I try and edit out all the aggressiveness, and leave in disclaimers when I'm not sure if I got all of it.  Sometimes I don't do a very good job, and for that I apologize.

in which case, you should really either start a thread in general discussion to satiate that need, or find a new GWG to play with.

Firstly, I'm fairly certain the former option would get it locked, and me muted.  As to the latter, I don't want that.  There's a reason I stopped arguing with GWG; giving myself an outlet for outright being a jerk started to leak out, and I really hate myself when I start being a jerk to my actual friends and family.

The way you word this (same thing you did with your endless GWG discussions) really seems to indicate that, rather than helping me decide the most optimal way to create our armies, you see all this as just another way to fill your need for verbal conflict. Thought that might just be me reading too much into this.

Uhhh...

Welp, the reasoning I started titling my arguments is kinda because of the aforementioned aggressiveness.  It's supposed to be something of a warning- don't respond if you don't want the risk that I'll get too into it and start arguing more than discussing.  They won't always be like that, but hey, if I do slip, can't say I didn't warn ya.

However, please please please do not confuse them with the arguments I had with GWG.  I did not respect him in the slightest, and pretty much openly said I was trolling him.  I respect you far more than I ever respected him, and make a concerted effort not to troll you.  In fact, that goes for everyone that I have made such a spoilered argument to.

I know I know, I'm just pulling your leg a bit. High five then?

I prefer high spock.  Just like a high-five, except you're also wishing them long life, prosperity, and peace.

*high-spock*

@Everyone else
Hey, why punch him?  That was pretty good.

[Radio Controlled]

((My general idea for those videos is that I think we can divide them into four categories:

1) Propaganda: why they should rebel, why the UWM sucks balls, why joining ARM is a great idea, ...

2) Technical know-how: how to clean a gauss rifle, where are the weakpoints on a Mk.III, how to open a battlesuit using the emergence release hatch, ...

3) Tactics: how to stage an ambush, how to clear a room, how to give a rousing speech to rally the populace, ...

4) Strategy: how to maintain supply lines and morale, when to stage that ambush, general rules of (guerrila) warfare (e.g. keep the populace on your side), ...


I could certainly do all four, but I'd like to get other people involved so they can have fun as well. Speech-oriented characters could handle 1. The second will probably be mostly done through actions using VR (unless PW wants to describe every item in detail to us). The third and fourth would go towards those that want it, though I'll probably give some of it to Hasala as training (if Swordsmith wants to). Of course, we'd still keep things general, and not type out every little detail.

Any thoughts on this?


@ syv:

Spoiler: About robots and Organics (click to show/hide)

So, we agree then? That we need both robo and regular sods, but not in equal amounts?

Spoiler: About amount of complexity (click to show/hide)

You say later that you want overlap in Tier.1, with both flesh and robosods of similar performance, and I agree with that.  I also agree that we shouldn't have overlap in the higher tiers- having both MK.III flesh sods, and jetpack robosods would be bad.

In this case, would you agree on the following way to do it:

-three tiers of forces. Light (grunts, tier 1), medium (assault, tier 2) and heavy (elites, tier 3) in terms of resources. Each tier might have some different kinds (e.g. sniper team, mortar team, ...) but it should be obvious what is what.

-Tier 1 consists of robosods and flesh sods with comparable abilities, ratio to be determined
-Tier 2 consists of 100% upgraded robosods, which are sufficiently superior to tier 1 robosods that it's obvious they are different
-Tier 3 consists of 100% synthflesh

This in addition to other, more 'specialized' forces (like battlesuit infantry).

You raise a good point, but the wiki was still pretty new back then, and PW wasn't used to using it.  Furthermore, IIRC the defense's page was a bit of a clusterf-  ...mess.  That wasn't your fault- that mission overall was like that, for everyone.  In the future, stuff should be easier to organize in a readable manner.  Our current mission pages... aren't a good example of that, but it wouldn't be difficult to change them to be more useful as a reference.  Especially if I were actually assigned that as a duty.

Fair enough. I'll admit the page could have been much clearer, but I was a bit too busy at that time to both direct a planetary defense and keep that page neat 'n clean (I'll admit that such lay-out jobs aren't my favorite as well).

And if you feel like updating those pages to be more easy to use, you'd be a saint to do it (heh), but I don't want to start demanding people do it or giving out jobs. This game should remain just for fun, if it starts feeling like work one should just take a break really.

Spoiler: About the debate itself (click to show/hide)

First off, I'm happy you took this so well. Was afraid you'd be angry or insulted, and I'm not in this to put down or patronize other people.

A lot of this is rooted in my own deeper problems, and if you want me to try to explain them for you, I can do that.  For now though, I'll just explain this stuff.

Well, if you want to do that, I'm here to listen, but you might want to consider doing this through pm. Your choice.

Either way, you seem to have a good amount of self-awareness about your debating habits. And acknowledging and accepting ones quirks is the first step towards growing as a person.

I prefer high spock.  Just like a high-five, except you're also wishing them long life, prosperity, and peace.

*high-spock*

You know what? I can live with that 

*high-spock*

[syvarris]

I'm just gonna drop the spoilers, because at this point there's barely anything there.

Yes, I agree with you on all counts for the sod composition.

As far as the wiki cleaning: I might do that, I might not.  I'm pretty busy right now.  When I mentioned a duty, I meant more keeping track of sods across missions- I might reformat the mission pages for readability every now and then, but I'm not maintaining them turn to turn.

As far as the last spoiler: I find your overall response interesting.  You're a good person, Radio.

I don't particularly want to talk about my problems, but I don't mind doing so if you're curious.  They're not particularly secret.

[kisame12794]

Piecewise, after a bit of arguing among the denizens of the DJ room, a question has arisen. Dodging in a battlesuit, Aux or Dex? The reason I ask was that I was thinking of integrating a braincase directly to a battlesuit, and piloting it that way.

[Radio Controlled]

I'm just gonna drop the spoilers, because at this point there's barely anything there.

Yes, I agree with you on all counts for the sod composition.

As far as the wiki cleaning: I might do that, I might not.  I'm pretty busy right now.  When I mentioned a duty, I meant more keeping track of sods across missions- I might reformat the mission pages for readability every now and then, but I'm not maintaining them turn to turn.

As far as the last spoiler: I find your overall response interesting.  You're a good person, Radio.

I don't particularly want to talk about my problems, but I don't mind doing so if you're curious.  They're not particularly secret.

Good vibes man.

[Parisbre56]

Piecewise, after a bit of arguing among the denizens of the DJ room, a question has arisen. Dodging in a battlesuit, Aux or Dex? The reason I ask was that I was thinking of integrating a braincase directly to a battlesuit, and piloting it that way.

It depends on what you're trying to do. Using the rockets uses aux, just moving around uses dex. Or at least that's my experience from flying out of the way of a plasma beam. Granted, I was using jump rocket pods at the time, but I assume it's the same principle. Radio might remember better, his character was in Gilgamesh for longer.

[kisame12794]

The argument was with Radio. Anyway, PW stopped by the room and cleared it up. If you're using extra equipment like the rocket pack, it's aux, and if you just decide to dive headfirst into cover, it's dex.

[Xantalos]

Oh hey a Xenonauts game!

I VOLUNTEER AS TRIBUTE

Get me Xan who uses only the finest unstable experimental/alien weapons and such.
Failing that, some sort of shotgun.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Oh hey a Xenonauts game!

I VOLUNTEER AS TRIBUTE

Get me Xan who uses only the finest unstable experimental/alien weapons and such.
Failing that, some sort of shotgun.

You could probably start unarmed, and pick up a gun off the first alien the team kills.

That actually works btw, but the accuracy suffers, and I'm not sure if it can be done before the weapon in question is researched.

Also, helpful tip.

People delegated to the role of "heavy weapons guy" normally have a whole lot of TUs built up as they level, because firing the heavy machinegun/burst laser/what-have-you takes a good 75% of their TUs and they still have to move. This makes the heavy weapons guy an... oddly effective choice as a last-resort assault. Because the melee attacks deal guaranteed damage and only take 10 TUs per hit, when firing the weapon may take 60 TUs and do collateral damage or suppress your own people.

[Parisbre56]

So what you're basically saying is that rather than shooting, it might be more effective to charge at them and beat them to death with Heavy Machineguns?