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[Lenglon]

A pulsed laser only hits once. it doesn't fire a continuous beam at the target.

actually, it does. the beam has a SHORT duration, but it is continuous, and against a fast-moving target the location on the target the beam hits over time will shift, greatly reducing the damage it does. additionally when the laser fires a second pules it needs to hit the same point on the same target the first pulse did in order to do effective damage. trying to do it all in a single pulse causes near-insurmountable heat-dissipation issues.

[Taricus]

@GWG: They may be from soft sci-fi univereses, but the mode of operation is still valid (As it is a real mode for laser operation.). I just used that as the example as that's how such a laser would look like in operation.

As for the electric train thing, those don't requires the sheer amount of power the weapons would need to operate. So now there's the issue.

A large blast would have a VERY small duration, if one at all. It delivers the entire punch in one go, not much of an opening for it to be partially ineffective. You either hit or not, like with a ballistic weapon.

As for the fighters, only a few have to be built with the life support systems, the rest you can fill out with the drone's equipment and such. Fighters would be harder to detect at a larger range, and (Assuming the fighters are powered via reactor) very capable of dodging. On the flip side though, they'd need to get close to do any appreciable amount of damage so they do need it.

@Lenglon: A pulsed op beam is NOT continuous. It does all it's damage all at once, not over time. It only needs to hit the target initially like a ballistic weapon would, and it's done it's job. And if doing it in two pulses causes heat issues, imagine how a continuous wave of it would produce heat on that frequency.

[syvarris]

@GWG

In this case, I'm arguing whether or not having organic components physically present is helpful.  Back when the argument started, someone defined a fighter as having a pilot physically present, whereas a drone is remotely controlled.  So I just went with it.

As far as the Avatar, I don't mean dump Miyamoto into space as he is.  That would be idiotic.  I mean, design an avatar with a different body- one tailored for space, with rockets or whatever you use for propulsion.  The pilot's brain juice should only be required as an attack, although it could be used for defense or to get a burst of speed.

Also... you only commented on two of my points?  Does that mean you actually agree with most of it?  Huh.

[Lenglon]

you're trying to transfer energy from one object to another over zero time Taricus. It doesn't work that way. If you apply the laser over zero time it will transfer ZERO heat, no matter how much energy the laser has. The reason to use a pulsed laser is to give it time to cool down, reset, and recharge between pulses. You can transfer the same heat in the same total time (assuming you fire more than a single pulse) with a much lower energy laser that fires continuously, and if you use the same energy level on a continuous one then you're comparing a popgun (pulsed) to a cannon (constant).

[GreatWyrmGold]

@GWG: They may be from soft sci-fi univereses, but the mode of operation is still valid (As it is a real mode for laser operation.). I just used that as the example as that's how such a laser would look like in operation.

It would have helped if you hadn't cited such sources, though...and maybe cited some more real-life thing?

As for the electric train thing, those don't requires the sheer amount of power the weapons would need to operate. So now there's the issue.

We can't generate and transmit the sheer amount of power anyways. The concept is there, it just needs some improvements...as does everything we're talking about in this discussion when compared to modern technology.

A large blast would have a VERY small duration, if one at all.

If d=0, e=0. Simple as that.

As for the fighters, only a few have to be built with the life support systems, the rest you can fill out with the drone's equipment and such.

What drone equipment is going to be anywhere near the size and signature of active life-support stuff?

Fighters would be harder to detect at a larger range,

Stealth and space are two concepts that normal physics will not let coexist.

and (Assuming the fighters are powered via reactor) very capable of dodging.

Oh, really? Maybe at absurdly extreme distances, or against absurdly slow projectiles, but otherwise their window between detecting a projectile and being able to move out of the way is very slow--I believe one of the previously-linked pages had a figure of a quarter-second at a range of 20,000 km?

On the flip side though, they'd need to get close to do any appreciable amount of damage so they do need it.

Indeed. And the enemy will have better range than them.

@Lenglon: A pulsed op beam is NOT continuous. It does all it's damage all at once, not over time. It only needs to hit the target initially like a ballistic weapon would, and it's done it's job. And if doing it in two pulses causes heat issues, imagine how a continuous wave of it would produce heat on that frequency.

Again, the duration can not equal zero. It's impossible. And that's what Lenglon is saying.

@GWG
In this case, I'm arguing whether or not having organic components physically present is helpful.  Back when the argument started, someone defined a fighter as having a pilot physically present, whereas a drone is remotely controlled.  So I just went with it.

Oh. Well, um, what about autonomous drones? And where is the line between "drone AI" and "pilot"?
I put the dividing line at "controlling force is plugged into the machine" and "controlling force is manipulating controls".

As far as the Avatar, I don't mean dump Miyamoto into space as he is.  That would be idiotic.  I mean, design an avatar with a different body- one tailored for space, with rockets or whatever you use for propulsion.

I know. However, I'm not sure how well synthflesh would work with rockets, and very sure that delta-v limits would once again rear their ugly heads.

[Taricus]

you're trying to transfer energy from one object to another over zero time Taricus. It doesn't work that way. If you apply the laser over zero time it will transfer ZERO heat, no matter how much energy the laser has. The reason to use a pulsed laser is to give it time to cool down, reset, and recharge between pulses. You can transfer the same heat in the same total time (assuming you fire more than a single pulse) with a much lower energy laser that fires continuously, and if you use the same energy level on a continuous one then you're comparing a popgun (pulsed) to a cannon (constant).

Near-zero. Not zero. But the pulse would certainly, to a human mind, to be at zero time. And yeah, it would need recharge, cooling, and reset time,s BUT you can also deliver more power in a shorter amount of time with such a laser as well.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is it really that--? No, I'm not going to ask that. It requires going into numbers.

[Taricus]

No need to go into numbers, just look it up on wikipedia.

[Lenglon]

We're talking about some insanely fast speeds here for space combat Taricus. Bullets are so fast that they seem to teleport from the gun to the target. that doesn't mean that's actually what's happening, and doesn't mean you can ignore bullet drop, travel time, or that your accuracy will automatically be perfect just because you're shooting a gun. With the speeds that space combat occurs at, the duration of a pulsed laser is important. and where on the target it hits will move over the course of it fireing unless the shooter keeps their gun moving the entire time it fires to continue to lead and track the target perfectly.

You can't ignore gravity just because you switched from bows to guns, you can't ignore travel time just because you switched from guns to lasers, and you can't ignore energy transfer time just because you're using pulses.

as for the power over time thing. that's front-loaded. You'll deliver more power with the first pulse, then the entire time it is recharging it will lose its advantage. Now then, yes, you do get more power over time with micropulses that you fire very rapidly over time and do essentially no damage at all per pulse and require many hits in the same location in rapid succession to do damage as cumulative effect over time, but that's very different from the sectopod cannon you're advocating here and has no effective difference from what I've been describing.

[TCM]

I refute all y'all with my sciences and physics.

[Taricus]

 In space combat, targeting computers are necessary, full stop. No matter the weapon needed, there is going to be a VERY significant distance travelled, and with light-lag preventing most weapons from being snap fired. You would need that target tracking regardless of ANY weapon fired.

But with pulse lasers, lets assume the pulse lasts about a nanosecond (This is already possibly with existing technology as well). One that shot has been lined up and fired, it doesn't need to be kept "on" (And keeping it on would likely be detrimental to the weapon itself.) The recharging shouldn't take long, and can be sped up along with the cooling. Not to mention that by delivering all the energy in one hit, the material hit is more likely to be damaged and deformed or destroyed than what you could do with a CW beam.

Using a laser outside of a few lightseconds (In distance and time delay) would be impractical regardless though, due to diffusion of the energy and such. Which would apply to the ground batteries as well (Unless the power output of those are significantly higher, but that means they would certainly require an ENORMOUS amount of power.)

[GreatWyrmGold]

A light-second is more than enough for the ground-based cannons. If we were defending Earth, that would reach most of the way to the Moon.

[Taricus]

You have to account for atmospheric diffusion as well GWG

[Lenglon]

And with that nonosecond pulse, you aren't going to transfer enough energy to do damage. You have to make lots of nanosecond pulses in rapid succession on the exact same spot on the target and yes, even for a nanosecond pulse, you will still need to continue to lead and track the target accurately for the entire time the weapon is fireing.
There is no relevant difference between that and a continuous fire laser. You still have to compensate for the exact same things to the exact same degree.
so why should I care if it's pulsed or not?

[Taricus]

Here's the thing: Pulsed Lasers are quite different from CW ones in design and purpose.

The nanosecond lasers he have right now though can be used for laser ablation (Look it up on wikipedia. Hell, go look up the main laser page there while you're at it.), and with the energy that can be output, it can cause some very serous damage to a target. you don't get this kind of thing with a CW laser unless the output of it is high enough to do so, but the energy for it to be sustained is much higher, since you do have to keep putting that much power into it constantly.