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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 309243 times)

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3525 on: March 21, 2014, 05:53:26 pm »

Yay. UPA got here from 1940s :D
Would be nice but in Ukraine we have liberals in power.

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Sonlirain

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3526 on: March 21, 2014, 06:31:13 pm »

Yay. UPA got here from 1940s :D
Would be nice but in Ukraine we have liberals in power.
As far as i'm concerned (flags waved around back in maidan) those guys who blew up the legal goverment were their spiritual succesors so you can say they're in control of ukraine now.
Nothing changed really since the 40's as even now they want to make friends with germany like in the olden times.
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Mr. Strange

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3527 on: March 21, 2014, 06:54:09 pm »

Nothing changed really since the 40's as even now they want to make friends with germany like in the olden times.
You do know that Germany today is quite different from Germany in 40's, right? It's hard to spot sarcasm...
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Descan

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3528 on: March 21, 2014, 08:14:16 pm »

Nono, the civilized world is run from Rome, the Germans are barbaric tribes, and dangerous horse-nomads are coming from the East to over-run western civilizations. Nothing has changed!
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mainiac

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3529 on: March 21, 2014, 09:05:59 pm »

Nono, the civilized world is run from Rome, the Germans are barbaric tribes, and dangerous horse-nomads are coming from the East to over-run western civilizations. Nothing has changed!

This is why the treaty for the Sevastopol base lease should have specified the number of horses allowed.  Those fools.
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Lagslayer

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3530 on: March 21, 2014, 09:20:58 pm »

Nono, the civilized world is run from Rome, the Germans are barbaric tribes, and dangerous horse-nomads are coming from the East to over-run western civilizations. Nothing has changed!
They are bear-nomads, now.

Chaoswizkid

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3531 on: March 22, 2014, 12:23:53 am »

True, Russia just seems to be stuck in the mentality a whole lot more than other countries. From what you guys are saying that is.
@this kinda stuff
If it's using the books/game as an example, the same can be said about the less-thought out crap like cod mw 2. Which was the triple-A-est of AAA games.
I can't remember, was that the one where the player shoots up a Russian airport, the Russians invade the west coast, or both?

I believe it was both. It should be noted, however, that the Airport scene was essentially Russian-based terrorists knowing that the guy who "infiltrated" their ranks was actually an American spy, and believed that by murdering Russian civilians and, at the end, shooting and killing the American and leaving him on-site would set the world into motion in a way that most benefited Glorious Mother Russia; sacrifice the few for the betterment of all. The only important thing is the player character's presence: that is, the player may opt to never fire a single bullet. In addition to that, that scene is absolutely not meant to be enjoyed. It is full of panic and terror and screaming and hopelessness, and if I recall correctly, not even the terrorists find the events good in any way (though it's been a long while and I could be wrong).

This also isn't anything against Russians in general, because in Modern Warfare 1, Russia was then in a civil war between... I think it was "ultranationalists" versus whatever group it was that the Americans sided with, and players fight alongside Russians during said civil war. In MW2, you learn that the US "backed the wrong horse" and their involvement only spurred on the ultranationalists who ended up taking the country. And after THAT, you learn the whole thing was heavily instigated by the machinations of a US General, so in the end, the BBEG is an American. I haven't played MW3, so I don't know how the story goes on after that.
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Svarte Troner

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3532 on: March 22, 2014, 02:18:38 am »

Yay. UPA got here from 1940s :D
Would be nice but in Ukraine we have liberals in power.
As far as i'm concerned (flags waved around back in maidan) those guys who blew up the legal goverment were their spiritual succesors so you can say they're in control of ukraine now.
Nothing changed really since the 40's as even now they want to make friends with germany like in the olden times.
I've held my tongue until now but I'm getting sick and tired of these sovok-era lies, and then claiming that the Ukrainian people must tiptoe around the truth about the UPA and Bandera, who was thrown into a Nazi concentration camp while his two brothers were murdered at Auschwitz. Not to mention the Gestapo liquidating some 80% of OUN leadership after they learned those pesky Ukrainians were trying to declare independence. Now that's some collaboration. I mean, Christ, a few months of non-military cooperation with the Abwehr must mean that the UPA (formed throughout 1943) and its multiple branches/factions (some of which openly fought against each other) ate Russian babies on the behalf of their German overlords. OUN/UPA Cooperation with the Germans was opportunistic at best. If you remember a certain Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the Soviets collaborated with the Germans as much if not more than the UPA.
The UPA was the only Ukrainian resistance to take up arms against the Nazis and the Soviets for a free Ukraine, the two most brutal regimes in modern times. In the wake of 300+ years of oppression culminating in the Holodomor, the UPA didn't really have much room to pussyfoot around if you ask me.
As for current events, Ukrainian so-called "Fascists" who use the UPA as a symbol of resistance are not the problem here, Putin's aggressive imperialistic nature is.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 02:34:30 am by Svarte Troner »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3533 on: March 22, 2014, 04:17:51 am »

Yay. UPA got here from 1940s :D
Would be nice but in Ukraine we have liberals in power.
As far as i'm concerned (flags waved around back in maidan) those guys who blew up the legal goverment were their spiritual succesors so you can say they're in control of ukraine now.
Nothing changed really since the 40's as even now they want to make friends with germany like in the olden times.
I'll tell you one secret that Russian propaganda will never tell you. 90% of Ukrainian nationalists are against integration in EU and NATO. Lesser evil is still evil.

I am from other 10%, but I am pro-NATO because it is good opportunity to upgrade Ukrainian army and I am pro-EU because I hope that in future Ukraine-Poland influence will change EU for better not because I like EU ideology
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3534 on: March 22, 2014, 04:40:26 am »

Ukraine-Poland
will change EU
Yeah, I guess they need an U. to add to their P.I.G.S. I wonder, will it be the P.I.G.U.S. or the U.P.I.G.S. ?
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Darvi

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3535 on: March 22, 2014, 04:41:07 am »

U PIGS sounds good.
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Beznogim

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3536 on: March 22, 2014, 04:44:10 am »

I'm breaking my hiatus on Russian criticism temporarily; it always amuses me when I hear from anti-Western Russians about Western colonial Empires when Russia is a Western colonial Empire.

No. The situation is absolutely different.
Colonies are the territories separated by large distance from metropole. This means the situation, when the leading ethnicity of the country is a considerable minority in its colonies. For example, there are a lot of British people in England and quite few in India, when it was British colony. Yet what is British people? These are English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish. Indians, despite India being a jewel of British empire - never were to be considered British, they were strangers and were deprived of civil rights.
Considering that large distance implies a lot of time of moving from metropole to colony, it raises the problem of keeping the territories under control. Especially, if the native populance is very different from you in terms of culture and mindset, dislikes you and overwhelms you in numbers.
Therefore, colonial empires trigger a specific type of behavior, where you either beat a native populace into submission to prevent rebellions, or almost completely exterminate it. Which was the fate of Native Americans and Australians, for example. So, basically, colonial empire means treating native population as lower race, sub-humans, untermenschen.

What we have here, I think, is better called - a continental Empire.
When the new territories are adjacent to the main land, you see, it allows the common folk to migrate proportionally, have active contacts with each other, already have some shared history, borrow culture elements, integrate and intermingle into each other. So, almost none ethnicities were discriminated in Russia throughout the history, no one here sent blankets with smallpox to the native peoples of Siberia, for example, and their nobles often became Russian nobility, too. Relations between, say, Russians and Tatars are like between English and Welsh - foreigners would hardly make a difference. Now, imagine an Indian noble in the British House of Lords during Victorian era - while in Russia we had, for example, Bashkir and Azerbaijani nobles, muslim generals, etc. Also we develop new territories, not bleed them out of resources.
We have and always had, especially in comparison to European countries experience, a surprisingly peaceful, united and multi-cultural society.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3537 on: March 22, 2014, 05:01:44 am »

Beznogim, Oh, you chose a fitting person to tell  him that English and Scots Welsh had same rights in British Empire. :D

As for role of Indians in Victorian Britain - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sake_Dean_Mahomet

Enjoy guys. Enjoy that "Russia never conquered. It developed (ungrateful) savages" mentality. It's the good old White Man's Burden

« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 05:08:18 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
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Sergarr

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3538 on: March 22, 2014, 06:55:52 am »

Beznogim, Oh, you chose a fitting person to tell  him that English and Scots Welsh had same rights in British Empire. :D

As for role of Indians in Victorian Britain - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sake_Dean_Mahomet

Enjoy guys. Enjoy that "Russia never conquered. It developed (ungrateful) savages" mentality. It's the good old White Man's Burden
Some of these "savages" managed to scare Europe so much they stopped washing themselves for several centuries.
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Owlbread

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3539 on: March 22, 2014, 07:37:29 am »

No. The situation is absolutely different.
Colonies are the territories separated by large distance from metropole. This means the situation, when the leading ethnicity of the country is a considerable minority in its colonies. For example, there are a lot of British people in England and quite few in India, when it was British colony. Yet what is British people? These are English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish. Indians, despite India being a jewel of British empire - never were to be considered British, they were strangers and were deprived of civil rights.

I could talk about how Scots, Welsh, English and especially Irish people did not have the same rights in the British Empire (Irishmen were considered "n*ggers turned inside out") but that would distract from the main issues here.

Quote
Therefore, colonial empires trigger a specific type of behavior, where you either beat a native populace into submission to prevent rebellions, or almost completely exterminate it. Which was the fate of Native Americans and Australians, for example. So, basically, colonial empire means treating native population as lower race, sub-humans, untermenschen.

This is very interesting considering I have heard several Russians use those exact words to describe Caucasians, and if you don't call this genocide I don't know what is. Same with the deportations that lead to nearly 50% of the Crimean Tatar population dying of starvation, or the deportation of the Vainakh (Chechen/Ingush) peoples which led to up to 200,000 of the 500,000 Vainakhs in total dying of starvation and neglect.

Again with the Soviet revisionist bile. I know we criticise the Japanese for rewriting history in school history textbooks but this really gets on my wick.

Quote
What we have here, I think, is better called - a continental Empire.
When the new territories are adjacent to the main land, you see, it allows the common folk to migrate proportionally, have active contacts with each other, already have some shared history, borrow culture elements, integrate and intermingle into each other.

I take it by "intermingle and integrate" you mean ethnically cleanse and displace? Leading to, in effect, genocide as a result of starvation and hardship?

Quote
So, almost none ethnicities were discriminated in Russia throughout the history, no one here sent blankets with smallpox to the native peoples of Siberia, for example, and their nobles often became Russian nobility, too.

You mean certain ethnic groups were considered more useful than others to the Russian colonists, like the Ossetians. They have been consistently used in attempts to keep tabs on the Caucasian nations whether they were Ingush, Chechen or especially Georgian. Those that were considered a problem (i.e. wanted independence) were going to have it tough. In Scotland the British government did the same thing by choosing Protestant Highland clans like the Munros and Campbells to control the rebellious ones.

Ethnic groups considered useful to the Russian establishment have been rewarded in the past for their support. Take a look at the East Prigorodny Conflict where native Ingush were ethnically cleansed from their lands in North Ossetia-Alania by Ossetian militias supported by Russian government forces.

Quote
Relations between, say, Russians and Tatars are like between English and Welsh - foreigners would hardly make a difference.

I notice you are bringing up the Tatars and Bashkirs, ethnic groups considered useful and non threatening to Russian control.

Quote
Now, imagine an Indian noble in the British House of Lords during Victorian era

Why, yes. Yes, imagine that.

Quote
Also we develop new territories, not bleed them out of resources.

So that's what you call it.

Quote
We have and always had, especially in comparison to European countries experience, a surprisingly peaceful, united and multi-cultural society.

I was going to give you a list of all the nationalist insurgencies that the Russian Empire, Soviet Union and Russian Federation have faced in the last 300 years of expansion but I realised it was going to be so long it would be virtually impossible to fit in. Let me just say that nearly 20,000 Russian men and boys didn't die in two wars 20 years ago because you showed the people of the mountains too much kindness, nor those who died in the last insurgency, or the insurgency before that...

I'm just going to show you this quote taken from this book by the Russian playwright and historian Edvard Radzinsky in which Soviet records were examined in order to write a biography of Stalin.

The following quote is taken from an eyewitness of the Khaibakh massacre during the Vainakh deportations (previously mentioned) also known as "Operation Lentil".

Quote from: Eyewitness, 1944
they combed the huts to make sure there was no one left behind... The soldier who came into the house did not want to bend down. He raked the hut with a burst from his submachine gun. Blood trickled out from under the bench where a child was hiding. The mother screamed and hurled herself at the soldier. He shot her too. There was not enough rolling stock. Those left behind were shot. The bodies were covered with earth and sand, carelessly. The shooting had also been careless, and people started wriggling out of the sand like worms. The NKVD men spent the whole night shooting them all over again.

During the massacre more than 700 people were locked in a barn and burned to death by NKVD General Gveshiani who was awarded a medal for his efforts by Beria. Chechen soldiers came home to discover that while they had been fighting for the USSR on the Eastern Front, their relatives had been burned alive. I should have made it clear that these people, the ones killed in the massacre, were the people considered impossible to transport. That meant they were basically all old women, newborn babies and children.

I have similar quotes to hand for the genocide/ethnic cleansing of the Circassians, Nogai, Balkars etc if you want. Stories that are certainly burned into my mind, anyway.

It's funny, I know how people often talk about "American Exceptionalism" but there's still very much an old concept of Russian/Soviet benevolence that just refuses to die no matter how many Russians are killed in inter-ethnic wars and insurgencies.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 08:17:48 am by Owlbread »
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