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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 309282 times)

da_nang

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2865 on: March 17, 2014, 02:47:42 pm »

Putin signs order to recognize Crimea as a sovereign independent state - RT
It seems Russia has gone rampant. West, I'm still waiting for you to gang up. And no, freezing the assets of 21 politicians won't cut it. You didn't even bother to freeze Putin's assets. You need an embargo.

Isolate and build a wall.

I mean, if Russia is just going to invade because a Russian was mistreated in a different country, there's a whole strip of countries ready to be invaded. And they're not going to just let it slide.

The fact that Mr. Putin thinks a country has a right to invade because a citizen of that country, or just with the same mothertongue, was mistreated in another country is preposterous. If he truly believes that then there'll be a whole lot of invading countries.
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Zangi

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2866 on: March 17, 2014, 02:53:16 pm »

Hey... it worked before.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2867 on: March 17, 2014, 03:13:48 pm »

Putin signs order to recognize Crimea as a sovereign independent state - RT

Hahaha.

He has them hold a referendum on whether or not they will join Russia, and then refuses to allow them to join Russia, leaving his puppet parliament in place but not having to fulfill any of his promises!? Hah. That's clever.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fan.crimea.ua%2Fpage%2Fnews%2F59359%2F

Withdrawing the legislation that would allow a speedy annexation, it seems?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 03:24:01 pm by GlyphGryph »
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da_nang

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2868 on: March 17, 2014, 03:23:53 pm »

A question for fellow Ukrainian and Crimean forumites: did the repealed law work as promised? What were the specifics?
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2869 on: March 17, 2014, 03:24:40 pm »

What do you mean?
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da_nang

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2870 on: March 17, 2014, 03:27:04 pm »

Just trying to see parallels and differences between it and the Kielilaki, language legislation in Finland.
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Owlbread

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2871 on: March 17, 2014, 03:32:59 pm »

I am wondering.... If Russia will make Crimea join as an independent country, will it annex Abkhazia, Osetia and Transinistria in the same way? Why not?

There were such proposals, in South Ossetia especially. The first President of South Ossetia described himself as a "Eurasianist" and sought a grand Eurasian Federation that South Ossetia could join. The trouble is though that the Russians can't actually annex a territory in the modern era if the international community still considers that territory to belong to, for instance, Moldova or Georgia or in this case Ukraine. Chechnya, a country that was annexed, declared its independence from Russia so that was an internal matter. The matters around the Dniester and the southern Caucasus are much too external.

Interestingly the South Ossetians backtracked quite substantially a few years ago and started making clear that they, under no circumstances, will give up their independence because they voted for it in a democratic referendum. I don't know what that means in the big scheme of things, whether it's just the Kremlin trying to justify the lack of inclusion of South Ossetia into Russia and thus unification with their fellow Ossetes in the North. If they are genuinely that pro-independence maybe the truth is that the Ossetes want an independent Alania more than anything else.

I would support that, the Ossetes have as much a right to that territory as the Kosovar Albanians do to Kosovo. The trouble was their ethnic cleansing of the native Georgian families in the South Ossetian war and all that, but such is life the world over.

You may consider me somewhat hypocritical if I would be more open minded about South Ossetian union with North Ossetia-Alania to create an independent state, given that I am vehemently opposed to what the Crimean government is doing, but I've said before that the Crimean government is not separatist. They are irredentist and there's another ethnic group in that area that, in my opinion, should have their own independent state.

I say Crimea should be independent. They should be a very neutral state like Bosnia-Herzegovina where, on paper, all three ethnic groups are equal. The state should be trilingual with special multi-ethnic representation in government. Crimean Tatars should be allowed to return home easily and, if the full Crimean Tatar population return home from Central Asia and elsewhere, they will at first rival the Russian population and even if less than a quarter of the 6 million who claim to be of strong Crimean Tatar descent in Turkey (enough that it matters to them) move back as well then they will vastly outnumber the Russians, giving the Tatars their country back.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 03:50:53 pm by Owlbread »
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Descan

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2872 on: March 17, 2014, 03:37:46 pm »

Something I read that was posted here was that, with the way it was written, the language law that would-be repealed was less "Russian citizens in places with 10%+ Russian speakers will be allowed to use Russian in official capacities", and more "In places with 10%+ non-Ukrainian speakers (mostly Russians), the government will be allowed to dictate which language people must use when dealing with the government."

So less "I am a citizen, I deserve to be treated in the language I am comfortable in," and more "We are your government, you will deal with us as we tell you."

Of course, I could be wrong.
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smjjames

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2873 on: March 17, 2014, 03:45:54 pm »

Hey... it worked before.

Not sure what you are referring to, but Texas comes up as an example.

It appears that Russia has now decided to sanction back at the US and mirror what we sanction. Not that it's going to do a lot of good for Russia.

I agree with Da_Nang, sanctioning 21 people (and not even Putin!) isn't going to do anything. Why they didn't put sanctions on Putin, no idea. Still though, it was a first step and arent going to be the last sanctions.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2874 on: March 17, 2014, 03:54:18 pm »

Avis likes his country, UR loves his. When their countries have opposing interests, Avis and UR clash in a shower of fire and vitriol.

Very interesting sociological experience.

But now I honestly wonder what the hell was with that languages law? Both sides seem to treat it as a powerful argument.
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olemars

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2875 on: March 17, 2014, 03:57:21 pm »

Just trying to see parallels and differences between it and the Kielilaki, language legislation in Finland.

I'm not a local, but I did some research on it earlier. The gist of it is that in administrative regions where at least 10% of the population has a minority language as their primary language, that language can be adopted as a regional official language for courts, government documents etc. About a dozen regions where russian is a dominant language did so immediately (the law is recent, 2012 I believe), one region adopted hungarian and another a language I can't remember (possibly romani?) If you dig through my recent posts there is one with a few in-depth links.

edit: found my own post from earlier:
I, for one, like to do my research rather than accept whatever's currently on the front page as truth, so here is some links with background on the language law in question:

BBC article on the law's passage and ensuing riots in 2012
RT coverage of the same event
Kyiv Post

OSCE criticism of the law before it was passed

Illuminating analysis by a Ukrainian scientist.

I gather that this law was extremely controversial back then too, and seen at least as much as an attack on the Ukrainian language as its attempted repeal is seen by russians as an attack on their rigihts. This law might actually have helped get Svoboda their seats in parliament.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2876 on: March 17, 2014, 04:05:53 pm »

You know, I have a fear that Munich conference v 2.0 is on the way. There are no sanctions (Announced sanctions are laughable imitation of sanctions, Russian stock exchange with it's +5% today is an indication of that ) and I will be not surprised if in fact  Russian demands (federalization\neutral status of Ukraine and stuff like that)  are accepted by USA&EU and opinion of Ukrainians will matter as much as opinion of Czechoslovaks in 1938


As for languages, the recent events demonstrated that having Russian speaking people  in a country is dangerous, so the stare must work hard to reduce their number.
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smjjames

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2877 on: March 17, 2014, 04:10:36 pm »

Well, the US hasn't finished doing sanctions (no sanctions on Putin? What's up with that??) and I don't know what Germany and the rest of Europe are doing with sanctions.

Also, the stock here in the US went up by 200 points when the Crimean referendum went through, go figure. The stock market doesn't like instability.
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Comrade P.

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2878 on: March 17, 2014, 04:13:08 pm »

As for languages, the recent events demonstrated that having Russian speaking people  in a country is dangerous, so the stare must work hard to reduce their number.
That sounds orwellian. If there are no words in language to express your thoughts, no revolts come ever. Here it will be no language at all.
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smjjames

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2879 on: March 17, 2014, 04:18:11 pm »

Can't they just support multiple languages? Sure government is generally done in english here in the US, but it's not like you MUST do it in english.
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