Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[smjjames]

I think the UN is already preparing those sanctions, or will be very soon.

Not the UN, Russia is on the security council, so they can, and will, block any attempt to take action against them through the UN.

There are other ways to do sanctions that don't involve Russia having a vote in.

Speaking of the security council, it's pretty useless with the way it works currently.

@xxsocksxx: Yeah, the whole thing right after the olympics has probably erased whatever diplomatic influence and public pr that was gained from the olympics.

[Pnx]

There are other ways to do sanctions that don't involve Russia having a vote in.

Yes... by not going through the UN... As far as I know they can just block the UN itself from taking any action against them all day long.

Speaking of the security council, it's pretty useless with the way it works currently.

It's basically the only way to make sure the major powers agree to be a part of the UN. If they didn't have those permanent positions they wouldn't want to agree to the organisation, because after all, all the world's major powers have done something most of the rest of the world doesn't agree with, and they want the ability to keep doing those sorts of things.

[XXSockXX]

@xxsocksxx: Yeah, the whole thing right after the olympics has probably erased whatever diplomatic influence and public pr that was gained from the olympics.

Worse than that, China isn't backing Russia on this. Russia's neighbours, while still allies, will certainly re-evaluate their relationship with Russia after this demonstration of what might be in their own future. Any trust that might have existed in the US and in Europe is gone.

In terms of sanctions, I think the US has gone ahead in this already, the EU will issue visa and account restrictions for some high-ranking people tomorrow, but reserves the option of full economic sanctions. Other countries (like Turkey and non-EU European countries) might join on their own, so this doesn't need UN involvment. Economic sanctions from Europe would be quite crippling for the Russian economy, they would be hard on Europe too, but if necessary it might come that far.

[GlyphGryph]

China and Russia are not really "allies" - in fact, I'm under the impression that to the extent China cares about this, they like it, since they are making bank on investments moving over the border from the Russia to China. Russia and China are not as much at each others as Russia and the West, but they certainly aren't friends.

On other topics:
I do have to say one positive thing about Russia here. If you're gonna invade a country, this is the way to do it. They have clearly demonstrated themselves something on the order of a hundred times better than the US at invasions, that is for sure.

Although I guess that's basically the same way the US got a good chunk of it's current territory, now that I think about it...

[Pnx]

Russian-Chinese relations have basically always been at least rather strained, it's true. Though I believe China's response to this situation has been to explicitly not take sides and remain completely neutral. They haven't condemned Russia in any way, but they haven't voiced any kind of support either. This is a pattern I personally expect them to maintain.

Instead they seem to be preferring to take the opportunity to push claims to oil and natural gas rich islands in the Philippines. Something I suspect they chose to do now while the world's attention is focused on Russia/Ukraine.

[XXSockXX]

The allies and neighbours I was referring to are countries like Belarus, Kasachstan, Kirgistan and others. I have read that they are not exactly in line with the Kremlin on this, with Kirgistan, which is supposed to join the Russian customs union soon, even voicing some criticism. Also I didn't know that Belarus and Kasachstan have not recognized Abkhasia and South-Ossetia despite being in the customs union and otherwise being quite close allies of Russia. I don't think they would take sides against Russia, but the prospect of how Russia tends to treat it's less powerful neighbours should give them something to think about. (source in German)

[misko27]

Every time I open this thread up I think "Still no war? Come on, seriously? Just nuke Crimea and get it over with if you aren't going to fight, god".

[smjjames]

Every time I open this thread up I think "Still no war? Come on, seriously? Just nuke Crimea and get it over with if you aren't going to fight, god".

Because nobody wants to take even the slimmest chance that Russia will use nukes if the US and Europe fight them directly? The itchy trigger finger days of the Cold War are over and I doubt Putin really wants to use them, but theres always that ever so slim chance.

Also, nuking Crimea does no good for anybody.

[misko27]

Every time I open this thread up I think "Still no war? Come on, seriously? Just nuke Crimea and get it over with if you aren't going to fight, god".

Because nobody wants to take even the slimmest chance that Russia will use nukes if the US and Europe fight them directly? The itchy trigger finger days of the Cold War are over and I doubt Putin really wants to use them, but theres always that ever so slim chance.

Also, nuking Crimea does no good for anybody.

...Where's Kappa when you need it?

I wasn't being literal. At all. I was not expressing my desire for nuclear annihilation. I was expressing my frustration at another day of "Diplomats gonna diplomasize".

[Sergarr]

Don't worry about that, we haven't conquered Eastern Ukraine yet. Give us a week, please.

[mainiac]

On other topics:
I do have to say one positive thing about Russia here. If you're gonna invade a country, this is the way to do it. They have clearly demonstrated themselves something on the order of a hundred times better than the US at invasions, that is for sure.

Chronologically speaking, Russia is at about the point where Bush was flying the mission accomplished banner.

Most plans generally look good when you consider all the upside and none of the downside.  Russia's invasion gets all it's upside at the start with the annexation.  The downside hasn't even started yet, the first round of sanctions are just about to start.

[Sheb]

When you run without meaningful opposition because you rigged the elections and media, it's very easy to steal an election by a comfortable margin without needing to outright fabricate the results.  It's even possible to have a sizable plurality of people supporting you while you do it.  But it doesn't mean democracy took place.

Indeed. As I said, I'm not pro-Putin. But the truth in itself is bad enough, we don't need fabrications and further demonization that just make the anti-Putin camps look stupid (why do you think Guardian GI is ranting about glorious western democracy all the time?)

Anyway, final results in: 96.77% in favor with over 80% participation. I'm glad they went so much over the board: a 60% win for the Russian would have been much more credible. In  a way, they shot themselves in the foot with those Kadyrov-like numbers.

The Crimean PM is announcing plans to start accepting the ruble as a second currency next week and start integrating within Russia in the coming year. So this would make Crimea different from Abkhazia and South Ossetia, as it would become just another Russian province.

[Descan]

I figured he was always ranting about it because he never actually read what anyone else said. >_____>

[Owlbread]

The Crimean PM is announcing plans to start accepting the ruble as a second currency next week and start integrating within Russia in the coming year. So this would make Crimea different from Abkhazia and South Ossetia, as it would become just another Russian province.

But the difference is that the international community will not recognise Russian sovereignty over the peninsula. That means it will be closer to Transnistria or South Ossetia than another Russian province. It will just pretend it's a part of Russia, pretend being the key word.

[Sheb]

What would be the difference though? Crimean citizens will have Russians passports, and will just have to go through Russia for all their international dealings.