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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 305032 times)

Owlbread

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2610 on: March 14, 2014, 08:29:54 am »

Well it's obviously because there won't be a war, just a "restoration of just government". And they'll probably send your own Ukraine troops to pacify any unrest or resistance. It's a very common practice among all evil empires, of course.

That's how they handled Chechnya. Putin bribed local warlords to be loyal to the Kremlin then allowed them to form death squads.
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Sergarr

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2611 on: March 14, 2014, 08:56:52 am »

The Ukraine is fucked either way, in the end.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2612 on: March 14, 2014, 09:07:57 am »

I'd say the World is fucked. And everything because they didn't finished Russia in the Cold war. That friendship in 1991 is like If Nazies would remove Hitler from power in 1944 (While Nazi party would rename and remain in power) and then allies agreed to stop the war allowing Germany to have pre-1939 territory
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

XXSockXX

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2613 on: March 14, 2014, 11:03:04 am »

I'd say the World is fucked. And everything because they didn't finished Russia in the Cold war. That friendship in 1991 is like If Nazies would remove Hitler from power in 1944 (While Nazi party would rename and remain in power) and then allies agreed to stop the war allowing Germany to have pre-1939 territory
Well, Germany was utterly defeated in WW2, while the Soviet Union basically dissolved itself peacefully. And that was the only possible solution, if the Cold War had turned into WW3, that would have been the end, because of the nukes. Russia today is not the Soviet Union, it just did not develop the way we hoped.

There are now talks between US and Russian FMs, Russia still insists that Kiev is not in control and that it might intervene in Ukraine, so that's not good.

Russia has also started an investigation to seek international arrest warrants against Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda) and Dmytro Yarosh (Right Sector), for their alleged involvement in Chechnya in the 90s.

Media here have also reported on the internet censorship that Russia employs against the internet sites that were mentioned here earlier (kasparov.ru, ej.ru, grani.ru and navalny.livejournal.com).
Some Russian authors and human rights activists have issued a statement against Russia's Crimea policy, after there was an official one supporting it.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2614 on: March 14, 2014, 11:15:23 am »

Quote
. And that was the only possible solution, if the Cold War had turned into WW3,
Nope. Another solution was to keep using political and economic methods to weaken Russia to the point of another self-dissolving...

Just supporting North Caucasus separatism could be enough to start the chain reaction
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

XXSockXX

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2615 on: March 14, 2014, 11:23:16 am »

Quote
. And that was the only possible solution, if the Cold War had turned into WW3,
Nope. Another solution was to keep using political and economic methods to weaken Russia to the point of another self-dissolving...

Just supporting North Caucasus separatism could be enough to start the chain reaction
I'm not so sure if that would have worked. Also the idea of friendship with Russia was right I think, it just did not work out very well, and both sides had their part in that.

In the current situation however, I think if Russia invades Ukraine, the EU and US should employ total political and economic isolation. I don't know if the Crimea situation can be reversed (that is a quite specific problem), but if something happens in Eastern Ukraine and the West does nothing, it proves to be weak and without values. That would be such a disastrous signal, I don't think they can afford that, at least from a moral point of view. From what I've heard politicians say, that seems to be consensus.
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Helgoland

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2616 on: March 14, 2014, 11:29:55 am »

I'd say the World is fucked. And everything because they didn't finished Russia in the Cold war. That friendship in 1991 is like If Nazies would remove Hitler from power in 1944 (While Nazi party would rename and remain in power) and then allies agreed to stop the war allowing Germany to have pre-1939 territory
As I said before: The proper analogy is Germany 1919. A major power is defeated, humiliated, and left with no productive way to re-establish its sense of self-worth. I'm afraid that we'll get a war sooner or later...

I think some of the same ideas apply to the US - after all, the idea that the US constitution gives us so much trouble because it was never changed after a crushing military defeat is well-established.
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Owlbread

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2617 on: March 14, 2014, 11:32:55 am »

Quote
. And that was the only possible solution, if the Cold War had turned into WW3,
Nope. Another solution was to keep using political and economic methods to weaken Russia to the point of another self-dissolving...

Just supporting North Caucasus separatism could be enough to start the chain reaction

All this will come when Putin loses power for whatever reason, or when he begins to lose his grip. The opposition parties in Russia (e.g. Navalny, people like that) are overwhelmingly in favour of North Caucasian independence due to their inherent Russian nationalism. They would prefer to build a Russia for Russians and feel that Putin is needlessly pouring money into the Caucasus when he should be concentrating on "Russian" affairs.

If you ask me that's my attitude too (less so the Russia '88-esque "Russia for Russians" bit), I just hope they also come to understand that Caucasian independence with Russian/Georgian co-operative protection and observance is the most beneficial thing for the Caucasians themselves.

But yeah, if that kind of thing started to happen then you'd probably see the secession of states like Tuva and Kalmykia, but ethnically divided states like Bashkortostan and Tatarstan are another matter.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 11:41:38 am by Owlbread »
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XXSockXX

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2618 on: March 14, 2014, 01:59:43 pm »

A Russian corporation claims that a US drone (type UAV MQ-5B) was captured by self defense forces in Crimea, after they managed to interrupt contact between the drone and it's control center using Rostec technology. (link in German) Another interesting piece that shows what kind of stuff self defense forces can buy freely in local shops.
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Sheb

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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2620 on: March 14, 2014, 02:12:16 pm »

A Russian corporation claims that a US drone (type UAV MQ-5B) was captured by self defense forces in Crimea, after they managed to interrupt contact between the drone and it's control center using Rostec technology. (link in German) Another interesting piece that shows what kind of stuff self defense forces can buy freely in local shops.
Look's like pro-Ukrainian self-defense units bought a drone in a local shop. If only pro-Ukrainian self-defense units could afford an aircraft carrier....
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

olemars

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2621 on: March 14, 2014, 02:38:02 pm »

Is this Voice of Russia article the original source of the UAV story?
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_14/US-drone-intercepted-in-Crimean-airspace-Russias-state-corporation-2994/

A few issues with that:
It says this is mentioned on the Rostec web page, where I find zero mention of any UAV's.
Apparently the drone is marked MQ-5, which is a nearly obsolete short range drone, of which two are deployed in Germany for training purposes (both now in Crimean hands if the article is true). It's got a range of 260km, so it would have had to be launched from within Ukraine itself.
The picture in the article is a stock photo of a ScanEagle (even though it is claimed Rostec has photos of the captured drone), which has an even shorter range. Incidentally Iran has claimed to have captured a few scaneagles, and gave a replice to a russian air force general at some point.

Not buying it without proof.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2622 on: March 14, 2014, 02:42:47 pm »

Not buying it without proof.
The article I got it from only mentions Rostec, and says a Russian corporation made the claim, but confirms nothing. I don't really buy it either, just wanted to point out that we are apparently still playing the "self defense forces" charade, even if it's as ridiculous as this.

If only pro-Ukrainian self-defense units could afford an aircraft carrier....
Maybe there is one on sale, your hardware stores over there seem like they got everything.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 02:44:30 pm by XXSockXX »
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misko27

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2623 on: March 14, 2014, 04:04:35 pm »

I'd say the World is fucked. And everything because they didn't finished Russia in the Cold war. That friendship in 1991 is like If Nazies would remove Hitler from power in 1944 (While Nazi party would rename and remain in power) and then allies agreed to stop the war allowing Germany to have pre-1939 territory
As I said before: The proper analogy is Germany 1919. A major power is defeated, humiliated, and left with no productive way to re-establish its sense of self-worth. I'm afraid that we'll get a war sooner or later...
So you would prefer Germany and Japan 1945, total and abject surrender? Not a loaded question mind.
I'd say the World is fucked. And everything because they didn't finished Russia in the Cold war. That friendship in 1991 is like If Nazies would remove Hitler from power in 1944 (While Nazi party would rename and remain in power) and then allies agreed to stop the war allowing Germany to have pre-1939 territory
As I said before: The proper analogy is Germany 1919. A major power is defeated, humiliated, and left with no productive way to re-establish its sense of self-worth. I'm afraid that we'll get a war sooner or later...

I think some of the same ideas apply to the US - after all, the idea that the US constitution gives us so much trouble because it was never changed after a crushing military defeat is well-established.
I would like to hear more about this well-established thing that I've never heard of.

While there are complaints about the US constitution, it longevity has had numerous positive effects, notably a very well-ingrained tradition of peaceable transfer of power. It never aspired to be a actual reflection of whatever the present body of US laws were or will be, but a basic framework that would enforce certain constants onto the US government; that is to say, it's basicness and high bar to change makes it tamper-proof, if hard to alter. Even during the most corrupt period of US history the constitution was still holding it above the brink, and was eventually used to help dispel some of the corruption (I am thinking of the 17th amendment). Changing interpretations of it, however, have given some degree of flexibility (the post-civil war government certainly never imagined Gay marriage would ever be a thing, but nonetheless the amendment they passed is now the primary argument in court battles to allow it). It could use a few changes, but it is the keystone through which the US operates, and it does it well. And the US would probably attempt to readopt it if it was ever dissolved by a foreign power, such is it's influence.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, as I understand it Russian troops are on the Ukrainian border. And Diplomacy continues to do nothing. And the situation is slowly escalating.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2624 on: March 14, 2014, 04:09:39 pm »

On the drone- yeah, I think it was announced a while back that the drones were being publicly supplied to Ukraine. No shocker there- the 'self-defence squads' having russian military equipment isn't too surprising either...
But yep.




snip
As I said before: The proper analogy is Germany 1919. A major power is defeated, humiliated, and left with no productive way to re-establish its sense of self-worth. I'm afraid that we'll get a war sooner or later...

I think some of the same ideas apply to the US - after all, the idea that the US constitution gives us so much trouble because it was never changed after a crushing military defeat is well-established.
I would like to hear more about this well-established thing that I've never heard of.
This.
What are you talking about helgo?
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