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[Sergarr]

Include Russia in NATO

[Helgoland]

Include Russia in NATO

Ultimately, why not? Maybe in 50 years or so, who knows.

I have no concrete proposals, but since it's all about Russian popular opinion, concrete proposals might not be all that important - the vital part is the shift in attitude. Let Russia know it's being heard! Projects to accomplish this should probably take place on a rather low level: Infrastructure projects, business investments, cooperation in peacekeeping missions, student exchanges, etc etc. Anything that gets the people to know each other better. Why is that necessary? For example, my father (certainly not dumb, certainly not politically apathetic) until recently believed that ~60% of Ukrainians were ethnic Russians. He probably knows more about Russia, but I'm confident the average German/Western European knows even less.
Why don't the Germans hate the French anymore? Because we kicked their asses sufficiently often Because we know they're not out to get us. And it's taken a long time for us to realize that. In Russia it's not that bad, but such a process of normalisation still needs to take place. And if we don't want another war in the next ~50 years, it's a process we should strongly support.

[Sheb]

So something like the reset Obama did?

[Helgoland]

No, actually doing stuff. As I said: Low-level cooperation!

[Sheb]

I'm... dubious. Although I would like the see sanctions against oligarchs and Putin's circle to be coupled with stuff like easier visas for ordinary Russians. To send the message we're not after them.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Helgoland, What kind of cooperation? Name few possible things to do

[Helgoland]

Look at the post under Sergarr's. But these are just  the first ideas that popped into my head, one could certainly come up with better ones rather easily.

[mainiac]

That's a bit drastic, I think, but the gist of it is correct. To phrase it a bit more friendly: After 1990 the West made the same mistakes that the Allies made in 1919, leaving a proud and powerful country with a terrrible economy, a chronic inferiority complex and no chance to integrate themselves with the global community in a way that fits their self-image.

Remind me again, what reparations have western nations taken from Russia?  Which export industries has the west crippled?  Which natural resources have the western nations appropriated?  Which territories have the west stationed troops inside?  What are the quotas for arms limits that the west has put on Russia?  Where is the hardship among the families of profitable industries that the west has appropriated the pay of?  Which Russian politicians have the western governments banned from politics?

The key difference between 1990 and 1919 is that German was put in an untenable situation and given very little support while the Russians have been allowed to conduct their affairs and it's only their own actions that have put them in a difficult situation.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Infrastructure projects, business investments, cooperation in peacekeeping missions, student exchanges, etc etc.

Everything you list here is practiced . Add to that  joined Russian-NATO military exercises. Add major sport events granted to Russia (Olympic Games, Football World Cup, Formula 1 race)  Add transformation of G7 to G8. Add APEC summit in Vladivostok and planned G8 summit in Sochi.

[Zangi]

The solution: Alien threat uniting all humanity.

Sergarr, Guardian G.I. - Do you actually think a referendum in Crimea held under these conditions should be legitimate? Would you accept it if the people voted for Russia to skedaddle? What would it actually take for you to consider Russia's actions here to be wrong? What it would it take for you to believe that the results of the referendum should be illegitimate?

Legitimate =/= Everyone will accept it...
Nor does it mean that people can't find a way to question it's legitimacy.

Right now though, Russia is trying make it look legitimate, it is worth as much as actual legitimacy if Russia manages to convince the target demographic.  (Obviously not the west, but Russia can still keep saying it is legitimate anyways when disputed by the west.)

[Ghazkull]

Well Guardian, to pick up one of your earlier posts, yes Europe does not recognize the current referendum. You know why? Not because we hate the Russians or have a problem with Crimea going to Russia. For all i care you could have votes all through out Eastern Europe and if you want in Eastern Germany to, hell have referendums in France and England if you want.

The Problem Europe, The West (or rather I) have with the current situation is that independent Observers are shut out of the Referendum. If the whole thing were legal why keep neutral observers out? Why keep the whole thing secret? You wouldn't do that unless you don't want people to know whats really going on.

Im going to play the blue-eyed naive guy i usually am when it comes to girls here just for the sake to humour the argument:

Why not keep the thing official? Why not make it public and have independent Observers (if you don't want those OECD guys bring someone from Brazil or Australia or South Africa or India or whatever other place in the world) look into the voting process just to humour everybody. After all following the general Pro-Russian Opinion of various commenters here the People of Crimea want to go Independent anyway so you have nothing to lose right?

And lets be honest about the Krim Parliament out of the 500 or so guys who should be there only about 30 are actually there...even if the official 61 are there you have to agree that that is certainly not enough people to run Crimea.  If everything is running legal why not make it legal by bringing in the rest of the elected government. After all to pick up the argument of a Crimean Official i saw somewhere earlier "We are all good and honest people here".

And finally it seems you assume the revolution in Ukraine was illegal and in reality a putsch by the West. Humour me for a bit. How do you come to that conclusion? But even if we assume Yanukovitsch and the former Government were wanted by the populace, why did nobody act? I mean if it really was just a rightist putsch were are the insurgents? Why did the military didn't act? Why did half of the police change sides to these, if i may paraphrase here "western supported illegal rebels"? Let's be honest here Yanukovitsch was a dick of several magnitudes, a leech on the back of the Ukraine who robbed the country. You have seen the pictures of his mansion.
I hope we can agree that such a Scumbag was deservedly removed from his position, unless you can give a good reason why he shouldn't be removed? Isn't it the Right of the Ukrainians to remove a Tyrant? isn't it their right to remove a corrupt and evil government?
Now of course the current Government in the Ukraine is not legal, but truth be told you never gave them the chance to get as far as vote on a new government or to bring things back into order. The moment they started to stabilize a hundred thousand ( i will humour you here) Self-Defense Units crossed borders from Russia and occupied a part of the Country.

These are the reasons the West doesn't recognize the current situation and the referendum. And now i would like to know from you pro-russian commenters what is wrong with my points. I apologize if anything of the above sounded derisive or sarcastic...i oftimes sound quite aggressive when writing.

[Helgoland]

That's a bit drastic, I think, but the gist of it is correct. To phrase it a bit more friendly: After 1990 the West made the same mistakes that the Allies made in 1919, leaving a proud and powerful country with a terrrible economy, a chronic inferiority complex and no chance to integrate themselves with the global community in a way that fits their self-image.

Remind me again, what reparations have western nations taken from Russia?  Which export industries has the west crippled?  Which natural resources have the western nations appropriated?  Which territories have the west stationed troops inside?  What are the quotas for arms limits that the west has put on Russia?  Where is the hardship among the families of profitable industries that the west has appropriated the pay of?  Which Russian politicians have the western governments banned from politics?

The key difference between 1990 and 1919 is that German was put in an untenable situation and given very little support while the Russians have been allowed to conduct their affairs and it's only their own actions that have put them in a difficult situation.

It's about the way they feel, not about what's happened. And from what I gathered 'Schandfrieden' describes the Russian perspective on the post-1990 situation pretty well.
Also, the material implications are the same, even if the causes are different: The Russian industry is crippled, Russian companies have been put out of business by Western/Chinese competitors, unemployment is high, the state is not exactly swimming in money, and NATO has expanded into Russia's (percieved) sphere of influence/stationed troops on ex-USSR territory.

UR: I know, but these things are being done right now without the explicit purpose of integrating Russia. What would you suggest to accomplish that goal?

(Also, could I get an opinion from one of the Russians/Belarusians in this thread on how far off the mark I am?)

[nenjin]

So due to market forces, mismanagement and perception, we should do....what in regards to Russia?

At some point a delusional national perspective isn't a license for compromise.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

UR: I know, but these things are being done right now without the explicit purpose of integrating Russia. What would you suggest to accomplish that goal?

You see... Integration is like relationships . Whatever you do if the (wo)man in question doesn't want to enter relationships those will not start. The fact is simple: Russians doesn't want to integrate. If you try to bribe them. Well that means being treated as a prostitute with obvious reaction. Using pressure is even worse because now we are talking about a rape.

[vagel7]

This is not about Russia feeling threatened, this is more about Russia wanting to rebuild its former empire. The thing is that creating an empire by force really does not work in today's world. I live in Estonia and while we may be the most successful post-soviet state in terms of economical growth, freedoms and democracy itself, we are still under constant threat of Russia deciding to just occupy us once again. Russia does not want to integrate into the western world, they want to dominate as they did ages ago.

There must be a strong message sent to Russia, that their actions will not be tolerated. This soft kind-of-doing-something approach taken by the EU and NATO will get us nowhere.