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[DJ]

We did a fine job dismantling Yugoslavia on our own, no need for an outside conspiracy. If there's anything to blame the West for, it's inaction. Like how the Srebrenica massacre was a direct result of the Dutch not doing what they promised to do.

Well, it's a bit easy to blame the Dutch for the massacre. I mean, there were only 400 on them, armed with little more than handguns and almost out of ammunition, not even having the fuel to run their APC's. It's no wonder that they couldn't stop a 1500 men armed column supported by mortars and artillery.

Sure they could've tried, but it would only have gotten them killed, as well as all the civilians hiding in the compound.

Well maybe they shouldn't have told the people there that they'll protect them so it's safe to disarm.

[Sheb]

Yeah, it become a strategic rather than tactical mistake (Why didn't they have the equipment to defend the camp?).

[10ebbor10]

Wouldn't have mattered really. They didn't have the weaponry and the supplies to defend themselves anyway.

Yeah, it become a strategic rather than tactical mistake (Why didn't they have the equipment to defend the camp?).

They also didn't have any food or water. The camp was on a complete blockade.

[boki]

Supplies for rebels come mostly from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other arabs states. Wouldn't change much. Also I don't see what recognizing breakaway countries has to do with Libya.

As for separation... Do you really think no intervention and officially keeping Yugoslavia together would have been preferable?

Its not about keeping Yugoslavia together, its about how you separate it if there is a will for it from the people. You do not go and support forced separation.

The thing is, there would not be a rushed separation and civil war in Yugoslavia if west did not support and acknowledge the independence of country the moment it was declared (in fact, it would not even be declared in the first place if it didnt have any support from outside). You never support a forced separation because in multi ethnic environments it will always bring problems.

Wouldn't have mattered really. They didn't have the weaponry and the supplies to defend themselves anyway.

Yeah, it become a strategic rather than tactical mistake (Why didn't they have the equipment to defend the camp?).

They also didn't have any food or water. The camp was on a complete blockade.

Nothing could stop srebrenica to happen. There was to much hate, and need for revenge, it would just happen somewhere else.

[GlyphGryph]

So are you trying to argue that Russia SHOULD be invading and annexing Ukraine, or what? Just that the west should feel bad about themselves?

Also you think syria rebels are not getting any support from west? They are. Weapons, money and other things, thats how it works.

Syrian factions are getting all of that from Russia too. So that's pretty much a wash on our "Russia vs. the West" debate this has become.

I'll agree that even in situations where the West may have been justified intervening, they fucked it up royally and probably would have been better off NOT intervening despite those justifications.

Russia, despite not having any justification for invading, is certainly a heck of a lot better at pulling such things off.

[MonkeyHead]

Russia demands the surrender of Ukraine's Crimea forces or they will begin an assault.

Well, it was nice knowing you all...

*heads to the nearest nuclear bunker*

[boki]

So are you trying to argue that Russia SHOULD be invading Ukraine, or what?

No, I am just saying its not as bad as you say it, because its not.
West killed so many, and rus too, but in ukrain, not yet.

I have problems people have biased opinion about west, think its different shit compared to rus, its not. Its same shit, dont know what is worse.

[GlyphGryph]

I should stress that Russia has not killed anyone in Ukraine yet - Although they are granting protection to those who did, so I'm not sure how long they are going to keep their hands clean.

Ninja Edit: And the answer is "maybe a few more hours", apparently.

But seriously, it's like arguing the US wasn't nearly as bad as Russia handling Chechna in the leadup to the Iraq Invasion because, before we started opening fire, we hadn't killed anyone "yet".

Anyway, yes, the West has done a royal job of screwing shit up, and has overwhelmingly decided NOT to do whatever things would unequivocally make the situation better.

But what Russia is doing here, especially given how such things have progressed in the past, is right up there in terms of 'terrible-ness', and much as I supported them shielding Snowden because they were acting against a state doing something bad, I am supporting the West doing something to halt Russia here for the same reason.

[nenjin]

I like how Russia is holding an entire region hostage and now threatening to assault the military bases of an entire country based on unspecified "Ultra-nationalistic threats."

[Johuotar]

Russia demands the surrender of Ukraine's Crimea forces or they will begin an assault.

Damn. PTW

[Sheb]

Take with a pinch of salt, apparently they had info that the Russians were going to storm the bases at 3 am on sunday too. I'd believe it if it came from Russian sources.

[MonkeyHead]

I am left with a lot of "WTF??" regarding Russia. Russia wants to take possession of the Crimea, or at least have it as an independant puppet state. I get that even if I dont agree with it - it sort of makes sense in a crude kind of way considering history/demographics and all that. Why the fuck they feel the need to be all big bully boy in the playground and start a war over it - which appears to be exactly what Russia wants to do - is totally lost on me. A free, fair and open vote which looked like it was going to "sort of" happen would in all certainty give them control directly or indirectly over the Crimea anyway, without all the associated shit that will fall on thier heads that a war will cause. Via conflict, Russia will gain the Crimea but lose so much in other ways. Sorry, threatening to attack Ukranian bases (which have been perfectly peacable) goes way above and beyond some kind of "protection" mission into blatant disregard for sovereignty and human life.

[nenjin]

I am left with a lot of "WTF??" regarding Russia. Russia wants to take possession of the Crimea, or at least have it as an independant puppet state. I get that even if I dont agree with it - it sort of makes sense in a crude kind of way considering history/demographics and all that. Why the fuck they feel the need to be all big bully boy in the playground and start a war over it - which appears to be exactly what Russia wants to do - is totally lost on me. A free, fair and open vote which looked like it was going to "sort of" happen would in all certainty give them control directly or indirectly over the Crimea anyway, without all the associated shit that will fall on thier heads that a war will cause. Via conflict, Russia will gain the Crimea but lose so much in other ways. Sorry, threatening to attack Ukranian bases (which have been perfectly peacable) goes way above and beyond some kind of "protection" mission into blatant disregard for sovereignty and human life.

I think this is the year Putin decided to flex Russian muscle in front of the world. Consider: the Syria Crisis which came to a stalemate because of Russian resistance to doing anything about it. Consider the fact they were front and center in the world's attention after Sochi. And now, there's a chance to prove national superiority through force of arms and diplomacy. I'd be more than happy to buy the "Protecting Russian military installations and Russia citizens in the Ukraine" if Russia was not clearly on the offensive. They act as though the interim Ukrainian government publicly declared open-season on all Ukrainians of Russia descent or any Russians living in Crimea.

[Dutchling]

MonkeyHead, we;re talking about Poutine here. He's crazy.

[nenjin]

MonkeyHead, we;re talking about Poutine here. He's crazy.

Putin would be so much more likeable if he were actually Poutine.