Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sheb]

Why should the Crimeans be free to join Russia if they want to?

Also Avis, why would Ukraine need to build a second naval base?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

It's interesting that Avis would talk of his fear of the nationalists in West Ukraine when the entire Crimean situation bubbles down to very, very powerful feelings of Russian nationalism.

But yeah, Avis, you obviously don't know just how many people died as a result of the deportations. It was murder.

[citation needed]

http://www.iccrimea.org/scholarly/jopohl.html

  The Stalin regime deported the Karachays, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Crimean Tatars, and Meskhetian Turks in preparation for this anti-Turkish campaign.[28] All of these Muslim nationalities had historical and cultural ties to Turkey. They also all occupied strategic areas of the Soviet Union in relation to Turkey. The Meskhetian Turks inhabited the Georgian-Turkish border, the Karachays, Chechens, Ingush, and Balkars lived near the main highways through the Caucasus, and the Crimean Tatars made their homes near the naval bases and facilities of the Black Sea Fleet. The Stalin regime feared that these nationalities would not be completely loyal to the USSR in the event of a conflict with Turkey. In the minds of Stalin and Beria these ethnic groups represented a potential pro-Turkish fifth column living close to vulnerable Soviet military assets. Thus one of the main reason for the deportation of these groups was to prevent any espionage, sabotage, diversion, or other assistance to Ankara by their members in the event of a Soviet-Turkish conflict. The importance of the Crimean peninsula in such a conflict had already been demonstrated in the Crimean War in the last century. The Soviet leadership believed that military control of the Black Sea depended upon a solidly loyal population in the Crimea.   Hence the Stalin regime deemed it necessary to deport the Crimean Tatars with theirlinguistic, cultural and historical ties to Turkey far away from the region to Uzbekistan and the Urals.

    On 18 May 1944, the NKVD began the actual deportation of the Crimean Tatars. Two of the deputy Chiefs of the NKVD, Bogdan Kobulov and Ivan Serov personally oversaw the roundup and entrainement of the condemned nation. The entire operation involved 23,000 officers and soldiers of the NKVD internal troops and 9,000 NKVD-NKGB operatives, 100 "Willey Jeeps," 250 trucks, and 67 train echelons. [29] The NKVD informed each individual household that they were to be deported for betraying the Motherland and made them quickly gather up their personal possessions. The Crimean Tatar families had only 15 to 20 minutes to attempt to gather up the 500 kg allowed by GKO resolution N5859ss. Most did not take anything near 500 kg of belongings with them into exile.   The NKVD did not allow some Crimean Tatar families to bring anything with them during the deportation. Many others   managed to collect only a few possessions during this time.    The NKVD then drove the Crimean Tatars to the nearest train station and loaded them into box cars. It took three days to load the vast majority of the Crimean Tatar population onto trains and send them east enroute to Uzbekistan. By 8:00 Am 18 May 1944, the NKVD had loaded 90,000 Crimean Tatars onto 25 train echelons.[30] A total of 48,400 of these exiles on 17 echelons had already departed for Uzbekistan.[31] The next day, the NKVD completed transporting 165,515 Crimean Tatars to train stations and sent 136,412 enroute to Uzbekistan.[32] On 20 May 1944, the NKVD completed the exile of the Crimean Tatars. According to their initial count, the NKVD exiled a total of 180,014 Crimean Tatars to special settlements between 18 and 20 May 1944.[33] On 4 July 1944, they revised this figure to 183,155.[34] In addition to these exiles, the NKVD also separated 11,000 young Crimean Tatar men from their families and sent them to perform forced labor.[35] The Red Army conscripted 6,000 of these Crimean Tatars into construction battalions.[36] The remaining 5,000 became part of an 8,000 man special contingent of the labor army requested by the Moscow Coal Trust.[37] In a mere three days, the Soviet government forcibly removed 194,155 Crimean Tatars from the Crimea. The NKVD successfully expelled virtually the entire Crimean Tatar population from its ancestral homeland. To this day it remains one of the most rapid and thorough cases of ethnic cleansing in world history.

Well it certainly isn't Ukrainian, seeing as how Crimea's only connection to Ukraine, again, is a largely ceremonial transfer by Khrushchev from the RSFSR to the USSR in the 50s. Maybe it's Tartar, but I don't see you clamoring for a return of Georgia to the Cherokee, Australia to the Aborigines or even Lviv to the Polish (or Austrians).

Good to see you're back at full force, GJ.

[Owlbread]

[citation needed]

45% of the Crimean Tatar population died of starvation and neglect as a result of the deportations.

[Avis-Mergulus]

Or is it about the Tatars? They have no reason to love the Ukrainian government either. Besides, they are an actual minority compared to the Russian-speaking segment of the population.

The only reason Russian is the majority is because of resettlement and murder of those who refused to accept Russian as the new language and be happily under the Soviet Union. I find this all very amusing, how about you give up Karelia to Finland if you think people should have their rightful lands? Or is Russia the only one allowed such rights?

Russia is not the Soviet Union. should I demand compensation for my executed great-grandfather, or my other great-grandfather who came back from a German POW camp only to be slammed into a Soviet labor camp? It's nice for the Tatars to have a nice big chunk of the Union to point fingers at and demand recompense from. Who's gonna compensate us?
Besides, the official excuse for for the resettlement was widespread collaborationism - wouldn't know about that.

"Russian nationalism", ha. Not wanting to have your language outlawed (so the new government spoke - promised sentences for it) is nationalism now. I'll go cry for freedom et all.

Okay, totally asleep now. Brb and all.

E: autocorrect

[Mictlantecuhtli]

"Russian nationalism", ha. Not wanting to have your language outlawed (so the new government spoke - promised sentences for it) is nationalism now. I'll go cry for freedom et all.

Sorry, imperialism.

Once again, why do you not give back Karelia? Or would that be unfair to glorious Russia..

[Lagslayer]

And you people thought the cold war ended.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Not wanting to have your language outlawed

That is not true. Do you Russians believe just everything your television said?

All that was done is an attempt to cancel a law passed in 2011 during Yanuk rule, was Russian outlawed before that?

[misko27]

"Russian nationalism", ha. Not wanting to have your language outlawed (so the new government spoke - promised sentences for it) is nationalism now. I'll go cry for freedom et all.

Sorry, imperialism.

Shh, only stupid mass-media reading western countries are imperialist.

And you people thought the cold war ended.

Ahh, the Cynic on time. It did end; this would be a new one.

[Knit tie]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, please, no need for radicalism. Soviet Union indeed has been murdering and resettling people like no tomorrow. Denying it is ignorant, emphasizing it carries no weight - it might've if the US at some point in its history returned native indians their lands, or any other country has set a similar precedent, but so far it's obvious that nobody is going to return Crimea to Tatars.

Now if I may play a devil's advocate, I'd like to say that if the majority of people living in Crimea are ethically russian and want to secede, I honestly have no claim against that. The Russians might be living there only because they were put there by the Soviets, but they are still people currently inhabiting a geographical region who are entitled to choose if they want to be a part of Ukraine or not. After all, following your logic, the ukrainians have as much claim to the Crimea as the russians do, and indeed all non-Tatar nationalities.

I still, however, do have all the claims against Putin. Regardless of what the Crimeans want to do, it's obvious that Dobbyface here just wants more territory and is just using the political turmoil in Ukraine as a paper-thin excuse for his land-grabbing politics.

[miljan]

Mehh, nothing new. Is it russia that does the shit, or USA/NATO that does the shit, only normal people are punished.

I really hope we will get attacked by aliens.

[Avis-Mergulus]

Not wanting to have your language outlawed

That is not true. Do you Russians believe just everything your television said?

All that was done is an attempt to cancel a law passed, IIRC in 2011 during Yanuk rule, was Russian outlawed before that?

Whatever. It was stripped of even secondary language status - no schools in Russian, it appears.

Asleep. That's it. Nighty-night.

Gentlemen, gentlemen, please, no need for radicalism. Soviet Union indeed has been murdering and resettling people like no tomorrow. Denying it is ignorant, emphasizing it carries no weight - it might've if the US at some point in its history returned native indians their lands, or any other country has set a similar precedent, but so far it's obvious that nobody is going to return Crimea to Tatars.

Now if I may play a devil's advocate, I'd like to say that if the majority of people living in Crimea are ethically russian and want to secede, I honestly have no claim against that. The Russians might be living there only because they were put there by the Soviets, but they are still people currently inhabiting a geographical region who are entitled to choose if they want to be a part of Ukraine or not. After all, following your logic, the ukrainians have as much claim to the Crimea as the russians do, and indeed all non-Tatar nationalities.

I still, however, do have all the claims against Putin. Regardless of what the Crimeans want to do, it's obvious that Dobbyface here just wants more territory and is just using the political turmoil in Ukraine as a paper-thin excuse for his land-grabbing politics.

The largest country in the world desires more land because..?
Okay, I suppose we just collect it.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The largest country in the world desires more land because..?
Okay, I suppose we just collect it.

Uhm, what? So you're invading it for no reason, then.

[miljan]

Well, at least its not NATO this time... I know, I know not a thread for jokes, especially for stupid ones

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It was stripped of even secondary language status - no schools in Russian, it appears.

What? No schools in Russian in Crimea? LOL.  Russian stripped of secondary language status? LOL. It's secondary status is guaranteed in Ukrainian constitution
Guys, I am ignoring post of TV brainwashed starting from now (what they use Internet for?)

Back to news :

The Ukrainian ambassador to the United Nations says 15,000 Russian troops are in Crimea.

I think it will be much more before morning

[Sergarr]

The largest country in the world desires more land because..?
Okay, I suppose we just collect it.

Uhm, what? So you're invading it for no reason, then.

The best casus belli is no casus belli.