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[XXSockXX]

Also, sorry, but you are all wrong about communism and such. Especially the "nazis are better" thing.

Not all of us said that. I for one despise totalitarians pretty much equally.

I think if we have established one thing, it's that the whole "Nazis vs Soviets" narrative is leading us nowhere except to terminology debates, so let's just drop that, really.

Anyway, the compromise proposed by the Foreign Ministers includes a provisional government, constitutional reform and new elections for both parliament and president. Apparently opposition MPs are currently debating about that in parliament.

[webber]

Yeah, it's just Russia lying about opposition [and supporters like 'All nationalists are nazis' fellow who shows the ability of such people to disconnect themselves from reality] and people like us who actually give enough of a shit to pay attention to such things.
Also I sure wish people wouldn't call everyone Nazis, should I go over exactly who they were again for those people [Russia loyalists] who forgot? Fascism doesn't come in one flavor.

See my reply to GlyphGlyph.
Again, I am not using reductio ad hitlerum. You have to understand just one thing - in 1941 Third Reich came here not just to conquer, but to eradicate us. Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, Poles, all the "Eastern Untermench". And in the Western Ukraine they got support from collaborators. And now grandchildren of said collaborators wave their portraits all over Ukraine, trying to finish what their ancestors started - building nationalistic Ukraine with no trace of "enemy nations". They are not just radical nationalists from generic country, they are ideological supporters of Nazism itself.

Tell me, which do you prefer: Your policies being vetted and under the control of the Kremlin, or letting your elected representatives be able to actually represent the country instead of Russia's geopolitical interests, and being worse off because of it?

My elected representatives were actually representing the country, until bunch of dudes decided that they are higher than law and started to capture government buildings and proclaim themselves the ultimate rulers.

Anyway, the UPA also fought the Nazis you know? Bandera himself was arrested by the Nazis.

During the whole Nazi occupation there were no reported losses of German troops in fights with UPA.
Bandera was arrested. Arrested. Not thrown to concentration camp, not shot, not tortured in Gestapo or burned in oven like a captured member of partisan movement. Just put into a cell. Oh wow, truly Germans cruelly executed their most dangerous foe.
According to the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and other sources, OUN-R leader Stepan Bandera held meetings with the heads of Germany's intelligence, regarding the formation of "Nachtigall" and "Roland" Battalions. - Wiki.

[Kicior]

Also, the police STILL does not have neither an order to use lethal force, nor the weapons to do so. For some strange reason all "cruelly-executed-by-government-snipers" protesters were killed with civilian or self-made firearms, usually from behind.

Looks like they have (atleast guns)

Anyway, the UPA also fought the Nazis you know? Bandera himself was arrested by the Nazis.

But they released him later, unlike may others.
Anyway, OUN and Germans also cooperated, you know.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

My elected representatives were actually representing the country, until bunch of dudes decided that they are higher than law and started to capture government buildings and proclaim themselves the ultimate rulers.

Your bias is showing. You're wrong on all accounts and will now be ignored because I'm not keen on getting banned because of ignorant people spouting off about Naziism. If anything you talking is solidifying my case that you'll do anything you can to vilify and disconnect yourself from reality if it helps you feel better about the police murdering protesters.

Fascism comes in many colors and one of them may be showing right now.

[Sheb]

Yeah, I know. The point is that Bandera wasn't a Nazi, he was a nationalist that founght whoever was occupying Ukraine at the moment with whatever help he could get.

webber, if you look on the UPA page of the same wikipedia, the same Ukrainian Academy of Science will have sources about the Germans they killed in 1941-1944.

[XXSockXX]

My elected representatives were actually representing the country, until bunch of dudes decided that they are higher than law and started to capture government buildings and proclaim themselves the ultimate rulers.

Looks more like a big part of the country does not feel represented by the government anymore. That could have been solved with some dialogue and compromises a few months ago, but the government somehow managed to turn half the country against them and thus caused the mess as it is now. So at this point elections would be necessary to have a somewhat representative government again.

And, yes, it is established that the Nazis and UPA used each other for their own ends, with various side-changes along the way. If people glorify UPA or the actual Nazis today, they are clearly missing something. We also know that some of the protesters are affiliated in that political direction, but the majority is not. Only de-escalation can prevent the radical minority from taking over the protests.

[Sheb]

Would you say the same for people glorifying Finland's fighting during WW2? They fought with the Nazis too.

[webber]

Looks like they have (atleast guns)

Yes, I already said that the guns were recently allowed. The post you are referring to was written prior to MIA statement.

Anyway, the UPA also fought the Nazis you know? Bandera himself was arrested by the Nazis.

But they released him later, unlike may others.
Anyway, OUN and Germans also cooperated, you know.

This.

My elected representatives were actually representing the country, until bunch of dudes decided that they are higher than law and started to capture government buildings and proclaim themselves the ultimate rulers.

Your bias is showing.

So now saying that the parliament of your country does represent the actual political positions of the people is bias?
Wow.

webber, if you look on the UPA page of the same wikipedia, the same Ukrainian Academy of Science will have sources about the Germans they killed in 1941-1944.

I know that it will look like I`m neglecting unwanted sources, but this research cannot be fully trusted because of UPA rehabilitation campaign that took place during Yushchenko`s term. I`d change my point of view if I`ve seen actual German sources, but I couldn`t find any.

Looks more like a big part of the country does not feel represented by the government anymore.

This is true, because Yanukovich is waiting for something and is rapidly loosing support in South-Eastern regions, where people want a strict response to protests. But distribution of the parliament reflects political opinions of the people on the moment of its election.

[XXSockXX]

Would you say the same for people glorifying Finland's fighting during WW2? They fought with the Nazis too.

At least you have to be careful who you're glorifying. Many groups allied with the Nazis against the Soviets. Some of them committed crimes against civilian populations too, this is more the case with UPA than with Finland. They all were used however and would have been discarded quickly in case of a Nazi victory, so at least they should be aware of that and not glorify the Nazis themselves.

[webber]

Would you say the same for people glorifying Finland's fighting during WW2? They fought with the Nazis too.

There is a difference between an ally and a collaborator. I don`t remember Germany invading Finland and exterminating innocent people.

[Sheb]

Oh, okay, so it's alright to help the Nazis as long as they don't kill your own people. :p

More seriously, can we drop the nazi argument? It IS kinda fruitless. Let's just agree that there are fascists elements amongst the opposition.

As for strict response to the protests: what do they want? Tanks on Maidan? Strict response won't do the trick, it'll only start a civil war. Just step down, have election, and if Yanukovitch still represent the peoples of Ukraine, he'll be elected again (Like what happened in Thailand for example) with enough legitimacy to quiet the protesters down.

[webber]

Oh wow.

Guy with a shield wears civilian boots.

I knew that yellow stripes are not for good...

Edit: also the left one seems to wear running shoes.

[Sheb]

He seems to be wearing the same kind of boot as every other guy. Still not clear who these guys are.

[webber]

He seems to be wearing the same kind of boot as every other guy. Still not clear who these guys are.

I cannot say clearly what are other 2 are wearing, but

THEY ARE WEARING BERKUT UNIFORMS, BUT THEIR FOOTWEAR IS CIVILIAN, BERKUT USES MILITARY ANKLE BOOTS.

[XXSockXX]

From other pictures I have seen these guys are police. There have been plenty of pictures showing these guys with the stripes together with other policemen.
If you are going for some kind of conspiracy theory that it's protesters disguised in uniforms, that's pointless. It is already established that both sides are using guns.