Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Svarte Troner]

Any idea why Putin himself isn't on the list?

That will result in a Nuclear War

To be serious I think it is reserved for later use

If they sanctioned Putin directly, he'd throw an even bigger hissy fit and refuse to negotiate with anyone, most likely.

[scriver]

I dunno about Russia, but up here we just call it small penis complex.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Heh.

Now, did they account for shrinkage?

[10ebbor10]

Stop justifying your own evils by arguing that other people were worse. This forgives nothing.

None of us wants somebody to forgive us for it. We (at least, the overwhelming majority) are proud of our past, we are absolutely cool with it, and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Not saying that people should feel bad for everything that every country has done bad in the past, but people really should accept history for what it is, not rewrite it.

A country who romanticizes its brutal and terrible past and attempts to justify what was done as being not-so-bad, is a country that will have great difficulty ever moving on, and who are far more likely to try and justify evils being done in the present. There were terrible evils committed by the soviet government, and arguments about "well you can't criticize because it didn't effect you directly" are just... pathetic.

Actually, if the Russian folks in this thread have convinced me of anything, it's just how alike they are with the southern confederate stalwarts.

Our "brutal and terrible past" has brought us might and prosperity. It definitely is "not-so-bad' in my book, for it is due to it we are where we are and who we are - even after USSR collapse we are still a considerable force to be reckoned with, not some third world country.
What future could your southern confederates possibly have offered and now southerners regret of not having it? Plantations, slavery, agriculture. It was a road to nowhere, stagnation being a banana republic.
And what did we achieve under Soviet regime? Nuclear power, space program, heavy industrialization. Even if you say there were crimes committed, it was damn worth it. No regrets, no remorse.

Also on the list of achievements : World's worst nuclear disaster, World's largest non-nuclear accidental explosion**, and persistent shortages of consumer goods due to economic priorities*

Anyway, both of these things are largely irrelevant. The USSR's technological accomplishments were largely unrelated to the Gulag system, or other crimes against humanity. Nobody is stopping your from hailing the accomplishments of your nation, but this does not give it the right to blindly ignore it's flaws.

The Goal justifies the Means is a really dangerous ideology.

*Not that that was resolved when the country was liberalized. It became worse, but anyway.
**N-1 moon rocket

Unwilling to admit defeat. Constant apologists for the evils their people did. Stuck in the past. Constant persecution complex. Incredibly powerful Us vs. Them mentality. Strong internal narrative casting themselves as the righteous standing up against the pervasive encroaching forces of immorality. A need for strong ideological leaders and a willingness to look the other way when those leaders break the law. An entire historical view built around "Fuck you, got mine".

It really seems like the same exact sort of mentality. No wonder some hard-line conservatives are such big fans of Putin and Russia.

We admitted, that the fall of the Soviet Union was a great geopolitical catastrophe. Yes, we suffered defeat. But do you really think, we would be content with the current configuration? USA, being the only superpower in the world, invading any country it wants and bossing everyone around? The fact that we also have imperial ambitions, should serve as a sobering revelation and a counterbalancing factor, making the world realize again, that the West can no longer just enforce its will on the rest of the world. Not in our sphere of interest.
Our actions seem righteous enough to me. If the law is not effective in the slightest, then it is a bad law. If one side inconsequentially breaks it numerous times for decades, we would be fools to just sit humbly by.

The USA isn't the only superpower in the world, and hasn't been for the last decade. And really, nobody is content with the USA messing up with all their stuff everywhere. Truly, I'm waiting for one of their meddlings to blow up in their face, and quite bit worse than what happened in Iraq.

Skipping to my final point, you should not fight fire with fire. It's not because some other nations are arguably breaking international law, that you get a free pass as well.

[GlyphGryph]

You're saying all that like it's a bad thing. Yeah, yeah, stupid russkie I am, yeah...

I guess that it is all about ethernal "Conservative vs. Liberal"

It's got nothing to do with intelligence.

It's a commentary on a lot of things, but "intelligence" isn't one of them.

None of us wants somebody to forgive us for it. We (at least, the overwhelming majority) are proud of our past, we are absolutely cool with it, and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Our "brutal and terrible past" has brought us might and prosperity. It definitely is "not-so-bad' in my book, for it is due to it we are where we are and who we are - even after USSR collapse we are still a considerable force to be reckoned with, not some third world country.
What future could your southern confederates possibly have offered and now southerners regret of not having it? Plantations, slavery, agriculture. It was a road to nowhere, stagnation being a banana republic.
And what did we achieve under Soviet regime? Nuclear power, space program, heavy industrialization. Even if you say there were crimes committed, it was damn worth it. No regrets, no remorse.

Look, if you want to be a cartoon villain, fine. But don't get upset about people calling you an outright evil motherfucker when you are explicitly admitting to being such (And yes, arguing that any cost paid to achieve power, influence, and personal prosperity is worth it is pretty much the dictionary definition of "evil"), and don't bother to complain about fascists when your mindset is virtually indistinguishable.

[Sheb]

Also, just because the US does it doesn't mean we're okay with it. We're not our respective countries, and you can admit your country failing while criticizing others. I've written in the Australian thread about how utterly disgusted I am by my country's treatment of refugees. GlyphGryph in this very thread said the US should have been sanctioned for the Iraq War.

[Helgoland]

I'd like to adress a minor mistake, GG: Until now, he has only shown an imperialist mindset, not a fascist one - imperialism being a kind of foreign and fascism one of domestic politics. These two often go hand in hand, I admit, but right now 'fascist' is not the right word. *

Ninjaedit: Didn't Knit say some anti-Russian stuff as well?

* Edit: GG was right, he has shown a fascist mindset. Worrying...

[Sheb]

Well, anti-Putin at least.

[GlyphGryph]

I'd like to adress a minor mistake, GG: Until now, he has only shown an imperialist mindset, not a fascist one - imperialism being a kind of foreign and fascism one of domestic politics. These two often go hand in hand, I admit, but right now 'fascist' is not the right word.

He said he's perfectly cool with all of the internal stuff the Soviets did as well (no problems at all with any of their "brutal and terrible past", after all), since it made them a powerful nation. I might be ignorant here, though - exactly what points would he need to adopt that he hasn't, so far, in order to be considered fascist?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Now imagine that Ukrainian revolution failed or never happened.

Yanukovich would continue drift to Russia, all our defense industry would fall in Russian hands because it was ready for privatization (It's not world class but is worthwhile especially after  modernization), Ukrainian army  would be further reduced to a small, well controlled by Russians, professional force (2014 should have been the last year of conscription) and Russia would have several more years to boost it's military and strike somewhere else

[Mephansteras]

Stop justifying your own evils by arguing that other people were worse. This forgives nothing.

None of us wants somebody to forgive us for it. We (at least, the overwhelming majority) are proud of our past, we are absolutely cool with it, and have nothing to be ashamed of.
 

A country who romanticizes its brutal and terrible past and attempts to justify what was done as being not-so-bad, is a country that will have great difficulty ever moving on, and who are far more likely to try and justify evils being done in the present. There were terrible evils committed by the soviet government, and arguments about "well you can't criticize because it didn't effect you directly" are just... pathetic.

Actually, if the Russian folks in this thread have convinced me of anything, it's just how alike they are with the southern confederate stalwarts.

Our "brutal and terrible past" has brought us might and prosperity. It definitely is "not-so-bad' in my book, for it is due to it we are where we are and who we are - even after USSR collapse we are still a considerable force to be reckoned with, not some third world country.
What future could your southern confederates possibly have offered and now southerners regret of not having it? Plantations, slavery, agriculture. It was a road to nowhere, stagnation being a banana republic.
And what did we achieve under Soviet regime? Nuclear power, space program, heavy industrialization. Even if you say there were crimes committed, it was damn worth it. No regrets, no remorse.

Unwilling to admit defeat. Constant apologists for the evils their people did. Stuck in the past. Constant persecution complex. Incredibly powerful Us vs. Them mentality. Strong internal narrative casting themselves as the righteous standing up against the pervasive encroaching forces of immorality. A need for strong ideological leaders and a willingness to look the other way when those leaders break the law. An entire historical view built around "Fuck you, got mine".

It really seems like the same exact sort of mentality. No wonder some hard-line conservatives are such big fans of Putin and Russia.

We admitted, that the fall of the Soviet Union was a great geopolitical catastrophe. Yes, we suffered defeat. But do you really think, we would be content with the current configuration? USA, being the only superpower in the world, invading any country it wants and bossing everyone around? The fact that we also have imperial ambitions, should serve as a sobering revelation and a counterbalancing factor, making the world realize again, that the West can no longer just enforce its will on the rest of the world. Not in our sphere of interest.
Our actions seem righteous enough to me. If the law is not effective in the slightest, then it is a bad law. If one side inconsequentially breaks it numerous times for decades, we would be fools to just sit humbly by.

Except that I would argue that Russia could have been so much better off if they hadn't done all of that. Can you imagine how much stronger the entire world would be if we'd had Russia as an enlightened democracy after WWI? What if the United States and Russia (rather than the USSR) had been firm friends? How much different would history have been with strong ties there? Would WW2 even have happened if the Germans were convinced that the United States would stand with Russia instead of being 'scared by the greater threat of Communist USSR'?

What about the millions of people killed or shipped off to nowhere. What strength could Russia have gained if it had used those people rather than discarding them?

Russia is the largest country in the world with a large population and huge amounts of natural resources, and yet California alone has a greater GDP than Russia does. The United States as a whole is several times the GDP of Russia. So while I don't think your past failed, I think those actions were ultimately to the detriment of your people and its future.

I'm far from proud of many of the things that the US has done over the years, but I am at least proud that as a nation we seem to be evolving more and more into a truly civilized country. Maybe we'll get to the point where our leaders start realizing that the US needs to set a positive example for the world that doesn't involve rushing in guns blazing to save the day. I can hope. But at least we don't seem to be backsliding into the bloodier parts of history.

[Helgoland]

So Russian soldiers ahve stormed Ukrainian vessels. Shots may have been fired. (Link in German.)

[Beznogim]

I'd like to adress a minor mistake, GG: Until now, he has only shown an imperialist mindset, not a fascist one - imperialism being a kind of foreign and fascism one of domestic politics. These two often go hand in hand, I admit, but right now 'fascist' is not the right word.

He said he's perfectly cool with all of the internal stuff the Soviets did as well (no problems at all with any of their "brutal and terrible past", after all), since it made them a powerful nation. I might be ignorant here, though - exactly what points would he need to adopt that he hasn't, so far, in order to be considered fascist?

Calling Soviet reign a fascism is incorrect, mind you. Totalitarian? Yes. Fascist? No.
What do you understand under fascism, btw? Or do you use it merely as insult, uncomprehending its meaning?


What evil stuff did Soviet do? Let's see:
-2,9 mln imprisoned in gulag (a prison, where you forced to work). But it is a large country, and, in comparison, USA currently holds now 2,1 mln prisoners and they are also obligatory to work (although, they are payed a cent per hour). Apparently, this is how the civilized world works.
-600 thousand executed (not millions, as considered by some). In harsh conditions of rebuilding after both WW1, civil war and foreign intervention, I think it is understandable and reasonable enough. Even if there were mistakes in judge verdicts, most of people executed or imprisoned were not innocent saints.
-moving some ethnicities from one place to another? Considering the situation - the war with the Germany (whose war goal was extermination of Russian population) - it would have been completely unreasonable to leave large amounts of other smaller ethnicities on soon-to-be-occupied territories, who did not show much loyalty to you and are likely to betray you.
-and so on, and so forth. All perfectly explained by completely rational motivation.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Can we, please, stop discussing Soviet history and go back to actual events?

Some info on the killed Ukrainian soldier:
He was an Ethnic Russian had 4-year old daughter and a pregnant wife...

[Frumple]

Was going to say something more direct, but... yeah. When one side of the conversation has reached the point they hold there's rational justification for the execution of over half a million people, there's not really discussion to be had, is there?

[10ebbor10]

((You know, this discussion would be a lot easier if the US toned down their evil-ness a little.))

There were quite a few more people imprisoned in the Gulag's. 2.9mln was their peak size. The actual level of people passing through is about

These data allowed scholars to conclude that during the period of 1928–53, about 14 million prisoners passed through the system of GULAG labour camps and 4-5 million passed through the labour colonies

Also, don't forget about alternate methods of suppression, like the political abuse of Psychiatry (dissent against the state being classified as a sign of schizophrenia)

Anyway, the point is not that these actions were a sign of a cartoonishly evil regime, or completely unjustified, the point is that they should still be criticized for what happened. Strategic bombing of cities was nessecairy to bring an end to the Second World war, but that does not mean that we should just accept that the Allies deliberately bombed entire cities, with the intent to cause as much suffering as possible.