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Author Topic: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor  (Read 48933 times)

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #285 on: October 12, 2014, 06:58:34 am »

Spoiler tags, man.
It's the nuke sign in the preview page.
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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #286 on: October 12, 2014, 06:59:29 am »

There was a spoiler notice in the text itself, but fine.
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Sergarr

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #287 on: October 12, 2014, 07:03:41 am »

I wonder if the next game will have the Talion become the main villain, a la Prototype 2.
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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #288 on: October 12, 2014, 07:05:32 am »

Quote
Why does this make you mad? Why can't you just let them have their free speech in peace instead of wanting to silence them?  ???
Because they are loud and annoying and theey want to shut down everything that trigger them. They are against free speech. They want to silence people. It's "gaming is satan" all over again.
Yes, they are extremely loud.
Perceived loudness is more relevant than actual loudness in this case. This game has, as kaian says, is about killing orcs in middle-earth, not about empowering white males people to opress everyone.

Also, I have the right to be mad about this as much as I have the right to be mad about fundies saying that god hates fags.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 07:07:29 am by miauw62 »
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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #289 on: October 12, 2014, 11:23:08 am »

Yeah, Shadow of Mordor's story is actually really damn dark and IMO it's clearly a case of evil versus evil.


Shadow of Mordor is basically the fantasy equivalent of Spec Ops: The Line. You think you're playing a hero but you're actually not. Only this game isn't nearly as ham-fisted about the whole thing and doesn't beat you over the head with its message.

All of this of course goes right over the heads of the vast majority of people who play the game. "We're a generic fantasy hero killing generic fantasy orcs, yay!"

Yeah agreed.  Even Talion often expresses doubt about what they're doing, and the elf coldly reassures him that the ends justify the means.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #290 on: October 12, 2014, 11:41:53 am »

Interesting article I came across, discussing NPCs and their use: http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/10/real-human-beings-shadow-of-mordor-watch-dogs-and.html
He makes some good points, but then he veers straight into SJW territory, with how the branding ability is the evil white male enslaving the proud PoC who did nothing wrong. Fucking seriously.
Only one bringing politics into this is you. It's a piece about NPC design in games. If you don't want politics in games, well then don't project yours onto everything.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #291 on: October 12, 2014, 11:42:11 am »

You can't deny Orcs are People of Color. There's dark greens, sickly pale greens, greyish greens, lime greens...

You know, if black people were just white people who were cursed and forced into a twisted form by a high magic to poison their minds and bodies and turn them into thralls forever. I can really see the analogues to slave society.

Okay, not really, but this is a game that works in the gray area and that can really confuse and bother some people. Tallion isn't evil. Tallion is vengeful. Cerebrimbor isn't evil. He's really vengeful. And I believe Cerebrimbor says something along the lines of "If we do not snub out this evil [Sauron's beginnings in mordor], the world will have to", he knows that what he is doing is morally questionable, but most ancient elves couldn't give a damn about morality. He doesn't care that he's the physical embodiment of fear and darkness, he's going to utilize those powers for a good [in his mind, which is also linked to revenge] reason. Pragmatism wins the day.


They're not there to 'enslave orcs'.. He dominates them. There is no ulterior motive to his domination besides the relatively short-term target of getting a thrall to a warchief position or other spot that is useful in the next plans. The player is the one who can decide to brand willy-nilly, which is fun, but that isn't what Tallion nor Cerebrimbor act as if the branding is for.

The game isn't even close to an analouge about slavery. Then there's also the fact that calling Tallion a modern oppressor for dominating Uruks [the especially evil and sauron-dominated Orcs] temporarily completely ignores that the Uruk and by extension the Black Hand are the most oppressive, genocidal, slave-based, bloodlusted force in the world since Morgoth was around. There's literally very few atrocities you could claim that Sauron's Banner hasn't commited. The article pretends as if the Uruk society doesn't consist entirely of war, preparing for war, and taking slaves. But that's fine since not alot of people like to actually read about the stuff that they want to stand on a soapbox over, especially in video game lore that actually has stuff you can look into and/or read.

So to fight fire with fire is the most applicable scenario. The article is simply ridiculous, and you can tell the author is.. questionable, by calling Watch Dogs and it's game world immersive, with it's empty NPCs and constantly repeated scripts..

Only one bringing politics into this is you. It's a piece about NPC design in games. If you don't want politics in games, well then don't project yours onto everything.

Lol. You didn't even read the article if that's seriously what you think.

Quote
Slavery

An aside: It’s 2005 and I’m in third year of an undergrad program. My professor is teaching Nietzsche’s On the Genealogy of Morals. She compares the German philosopher’s work tracing the origins of “good” and “evil” to the dictionary scene in Spike Lee’s Malcolm X, where Malcolm is taught to see the way that “white” and “black”—the colors—are used to connote aesthetic and moral desirability. Blank faces. So she asks if anyone’s seen it, and I raise my hand, and then we all realize that I’m both the only one with my hand up and the only person of color in the room. We all laugh and move on.

Years later I read that, in one of Tolkien’s fictional languages, “Mordor actually has two meanings: the Black Land or the Dark Land.” The wiki’s editors add further linguistic context: “Mordor is also a name cited in some Nordic mythologies referring to a land where its citizens practice evil without knowing it.” I wonder about the symbolic work done through a mythology of a land of naïve evil.

In Mordor, the “evilness” of the Orcs serves a clear purpose: it attempts to justify the horrific behavior of Talion, who spends the latter half of the game using his ghostly powers to enslave Orc after Orc.

There is simply no dressing this up any other way. Talion places his hand on an Orc’s face. His ghostly inhabitant takes control and shouts about power. The Orc’s eyes glow blue and he immediately comes under your sway. If he is a normal foot soldier, he begins to fight for you. If he is one of the captains or war chiefs, you can then issue a specific command: go fight another Orc captain, or build up your reputation and enter the service of a chief, for instance. These characters address this act in passing, but there is no critique here. You play as the hero Talion, who enslaves the Orcs.

Keep telling others they're the ones shoehorning political and societal views onto an 'article' about 'NPCs' where the author directly implies he's bringing up a political argument, which I must also mention again leads into a completely mislead and uninformed argument about how the Uruks of Sauron being dominated is analogous to slavery. The author should be complaining about the imprisonment, enslavement, torture, and genetic modification [mostly getting rid of their ability to freely reason] of the people who became the Orcs and the Uruks by the dark hand if he actually gave a shit about the lore itself to know what he was talking about, but no.

I mean, if anyone wants to make an intelligent argument in this vein you can. I enjoy LOTR debates. But saying "Tallion is a [white cis scum oppressive] enslaver" is an objectively wrong account of SoM and of the concept of gray areas of morality in general. It sounds like it's written by a liberal arts grad student.. and it was.

Now, who wants to actually make this debate? I'm up for it. Less so the slavery aspect, more so the questioning of the actual process to deal with the thralls of Sauron. Sure, it shouldn't just be genocide against Orcs/Uruks, but I have reasonable belief that the ancients have tried many methods to.. remove the influence of Sauron/Morgoth from their minds. If it were as easy to turn Orcs back to completely free-willed people as it were to try to wipe them out I'd argue we should save all the orcs, but evidence isn't in that direction.. So far, Tallion dominating orcs to allow them to their own devices is actually one of the best outcomes you could have as a footsoldier of Sauron.. none of *my* warchiefs have died, and they still hold feasts, hunts, etc.. I am open to the idea of helping them, but.. it is a multiple-thousand year war, too, so things aren't as easy.

Then again, this is all ignoring the religious implications of LOTR backstory as well, but hey.

E: It also bothers me the author just calls Uruks 'orcs'.. They're completely different..
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 12:11:53 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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kaian-a-coel

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #292 on: October 12, 2014, 12:40:46 pm »

E: It also bothers me the author just calls Uruks 'orcs'.. They're completely different..
Uruk simply means "orc" in orcish. It's just that big orcs took to referring to small orcs as "snagga", slaves, so "Uruk" took the meaning of "big-ass orc". So yeah, they're orc. Big orcs. Besides, Sauron's own Uruks, similar to Saruman's own, are also known as "orcs of the morannon" (IIRC).


Now, who wants to actually make this debate? I'm up for it. Less so the slavery aspect, more so the questioning of the actual process to deal with the thralls of Sauron. Sure, it shouldn't just be genocide against Orcs/Uruks, but I have reasonable belief that the ancients have tried many methods to.. remove the influence of Sauron/Morgoth from their minds. If it were as easy to turn Orcs back to completely free-willed people as it were to try to wipe them out I'd argue we should save all the orcs, but evidence isn't in that direction.. So far, Tallion dominating orcs to allow them to their own devices is actually one of the best outcomes you could have as a footsoldier of Sauron.. none of *my* warchiefs have died, and they still hold feasts, hunts, etc.. I am open to the idea of helping them, but.. it is a multiple-thousand year war, too, so things aren't as easy.
There is no canon attempt at orcish "rehab" and integration. Everything we know seems to suggest that it is hopeless, and that being a mook of evil is too deeply integrated into them. But that's the result of a multi-millenia war, so what they could become if mankind seriously tries to integrate them is unknowable (the author being dead).
The only "fan" works on this subject I know of are thinly-veiled trolling attempts disguising as even more thinly-veiled neo-nazi propaganda (muh race purity, muh blacks overbreeding us and corrupting the kingdom from within, muh we won the war but now we're losing our way of life, yadda yadda you see what I mean). Absolutely disgusting.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #293 on: October 12, 2014, 12:42:19 pm »

E: It also bothers me the author just calls Uruks 'orcs'.. They're completely different..
Uruk simply means "orc" in orcish. It's just that big orcs took to referring to small orcs as "snagga", slaves, so "Uruk" took the meaning of "big-ass orc". So yeah, they're orc. Big orcs. Besides, Sauron's own Uruks, similar to Saruman's own, are also known as "orcs of the morannon" (IIRC).

Quote
The race of uruks, described as "black orcs of great strength", first appeared about the year 2475 of the Third Age, when they conquered Ithilien and destroyed the city of Osgiliath. These were evidently of Sauron's breeding, but it is not clear whether or not these uruks should be regarded as identical with the Uruk-hai, who could be a further 'improvement' to the race achieved by Saruman.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Uruk-hai
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 12:44:12 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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kaian-a-coel

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #294 on: October 12, 2014, 12:57:39 pm »

Quote from: Eomer
...and others, too, came out of the forest. Great Orcs, who also bore the White Hand of Isengard: that kind is stronger and more fell than all the others.

Quote
The Uruk-hai were a new breed of Orcs that appeared during the Third Age.

Hell, Uruk-hai literally means "orc folk". Reffering to Uruks as "orcs" is correct. It's unspecific but correct.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #295 on: October 12, 2014, 01:00:00 pm »

They're called -hai because they're not just Orcs. They're intelligently designed Orcs+Goblins. Not even close to Orcs, they're much more intelligent and attuned directly to Sauron's influence. Orcs have a chance of being what they once were inside [in theory, they're so weak willed thanks to the direct eugenic poisoning by Morgoth that it's highly unlikely to find free will amongst Orcs that isn't driven primarily by greed], Uruk-hai are Sauron's creatures through and through. It's a pretty major difference.

You will also note Saruman's Uruk-hai are supposedly after the progenitor Uruk of Mordor, for all we know it was a joint project. But to be more clear, Uruk-Hai are not Orcs. The Uruk-hai are their Supermutants. Artificially designed by all means, and not a natural race. They're basically biological robots..
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 01:10:15 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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kaian-a-coel

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #296 on: October 12, 2014, 01:10:03 pm »

Quote from: Wikipedia
By the time of his published work, however, the terms had become synonymous. The Hobbit generally uses the term goblin, while the Lord of the Rings prefers orc. The opponents of the dwarves in "Dwarf and Goblin War" of The Hobbit are described as orcs in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. No distinction is made by size; large orcs, including the Uruk-hai, are just as much goblins as are smaller ones.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #297 on: October 12, 2014, 01:12:38 pm »

I'm not going to make the statement again, Uruk-hai are artificially designed. -Folk is added because they're Orcs and a mixture of other races. Not a natural race. Created by Sauron to be battle-meat-slaves better than normal Morgoth thralls. Orcs are a natural race of people twisted by Morgoth. There is a significant difference between referring to an Uruk as an Orc and referring to an Orc as an Uruk. Yes, evil can and does have racial differences and divergent evolution. They're not the same thing just because they're the same geneology.

Unless, of course, you'd call a Goblin an Uruk. Then go on ahead with calling things incorrect terms.

Quote
"Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description." -- Gandalf

Early interpretations were being obfuscated thanks to limited vocabulary, but we know how to differentiate between Orc, Goblin, and Uruk instead of having one word mean 5 things. Tolkien originally wrote it so that it was a mysterious thing, but with quotes like the above he did expand on the fact that Orcs aren't easy to define as one group. Tolkien made the distinction himself in later works. Uruk-hai aren't Orcs any more than Orcs are Elves. I'd argue they're a whole different class of their own.

Technically, though, I suppose you could call it the 'Goblin' race..
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 01:37:06 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #298 on: October 12, 2014, 01:33:57 pm »

So the point being made by the article is that, however their official portrayal in the books, ect, the NPCs which are being called such are not behaving as such. That they are such in name only; and that that is the fact which makes them interesting characters. And that by fleshing out such things and making them more than just nazi/zombie/orc mooks serving under <boss> with no will of their own makes for more interesting storytelling and emergent gameplay.
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kaian-a-coel

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #299 on: October 12, 2014, 02:04:18 pm »

So the point being made by the article is that, however their official portrayal in the books, ect, the NPCs which are being called such are not behaving as such. That they are such in name only; and that that is the fact which makes them interesting characters. And that by fleshing out such things and making them more than just nazi/zombie/orc mooks serving under <boss> with no will of their own makes for more interesting storytelling and emergent gameplay.
This I agree with. Fleshed out NPCs are better NPCs.
Faceless mooks have their own merits (sometimes you just want a brainless beat'em all, and drowning you in "THIS DUDE HAD A FAMILY" feels can be annoying in the wrong game), but they're too prominent right now, and interesting NPCs aren't as common as I'd like.
We got the power and the technology to make it happen, SoM is a step forward and I want to see the Nemesis system reused and expanded on.
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