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Author Topic: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review  (Read 236180 times)

Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #735 on: February 04, 2021, 08:43:11 pm »

One setup I've been pondering is something Tomasque ran a while ago - Exquisite Cops and Robbers. Sadly it didn't run for long, but I love the concept. The players all contribute pieces of roles which are developed step by step into a final product.

What I wonder is how it would be possible to design an improved version of it where the player participation doesn't make it possible to reverse-engineer the roles from information that you shouldn't really have. I for one would love to play a round of a version of this.

I've thought about this a little bit since then, and I came up with a solution.

-snip-

I've removed this post temporarily, since I'm running the game right now. If you've already seen it, don't worry. You can still play.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 10:32:11 pm by Tomasque »
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #736 on: February 04, 2021, 09:30:33 pm »

You absolute mad lad.

If you don't run that, I probably will, to be honest. (But I'd love playing it more than running it, heheh.)
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Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #737 on: February 04, 2021, 09:53:59 pm »

I think I might run it after I finish this week's midterm. It's been a while since I've done something like that.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #738 on: February 05, 2021, 01:24:51 pm »

Does that setup have a flexible player count?
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #739 on: February 05, 2021, 07:55:30 pm »

Previously, I posted the 5-player 1-mafia 1-jester 3-town setup, which seemed a bit sided against the town initially. Here's my refinement.

1 One-Shot Daykilling Mafioso
3 Vanilla Townies
1 Secret-Voteless Vengekilling Jester

The Mafioso must daykill on the third lowercase-day of the five-day long game. They can queue the kill up in advance if they need to. Mafioso automatically wins after a town lynch.

The Jester's vote secretly does not count, and if they are daykilled, they can choose a player to kill, themselves. If they kill the mafia player, their win condition is still fulfilled. When the Jester wins, everyone else still loses.

The townies win if the mafioso is lynched.

This seems a bit more balanced, I think.

Since the jester can win by vengekilling the mafioso, they have an incentive to scumhunt, and since the mafioso might lose if they daykill the jester, they have an incentive to hunt as well, forcing both the non-town players to invest themselves more into the game.

It still seems flawed, though. Jokes on me for trying to make a jester work in a balanced and fun way.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

4maskwolf

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #740 on: February 05, 2021, 08:23:04 pm »

Early (pre-daykill) hammer win percentages: unchanged
Jester: 20%
Town: 20%
Mafia: 60%
In practice the town win is even more vanishingly unlikely because the voteless jester forces the whole town to vote mafioso for the win.

Post-daykill/on-daykill win percentages:
Jester: 25%
Town: 25%
Mafia: 50%
Again these winrates don't represent the likely in-reality town winrate: the town are forced to find each other and both vote the mafia in order to win, any other scenario results in a town loss due to the voteless jester and the mafia (obviously) never voting themselves.

Best case scenario for the town is for the mafia to kill the jester and the jester to kill a townie, which gives the town a 33% chance to win from a pure statistical standpoint.

Edit: Sorry for being a killjoy with all the math.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 08:26:45 pm by 4maskwolf »
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #741 on: February 05, 2021, 09:22:06 pm »

Nah, it's cool. If anything I'm happy for your analysis.

This at least looks viable to run, though still not ideal.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #742 on: February 06, 2021, 03:30:38 am »

Does that setup have a flexible player count?

I think I'll have it be 6-player, night-start (with no kills on the first night). Keeps it nice and short, and makes it very likely to get out of sign-ups. If it goes well I can always run it with more people.

Early (pre-daykill) hammer win percentages: unchanged
Jester: 20%
Town: 20%
Mafia: 60%
In practice the town win is even more vanishingly unlikely because the voteless jester forces the whole town to vote mafioso for the win.

Post-daykill/on-daykill win percentages:
Jester: 25%
Town: 25%
Mafia: 50%
Again these winrates don't represent the likely in-reality town winrate: the town are forced to find each other and both vote the mafia in order to win, any other scenario results in a town loss due to the voteless jester and the mafia (obviously) never voting themselves.

Best case scenario for the town is for the mafia to kill the jester and the jester to kill a townie, which gives the town a 33% chance to win from a pure statistical standpoint.

Edit: Sorry for being a killjoy with all the math.

How did you calculate that?
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ToonyMan

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #743 on: February 11, 2021, 12:55:22 am »

I very much would still like to see a Your Turn To Die style game so I wrote out some more stuff.



Card Mafia

General Rules:
Don't quote my PMs anywhere unless I said it in the main thread.
Don't quote other player's PMs anywhere unless you're talking to them via PMs.
You can PM other players, but include me.
You can "vote" in the thread, but only your vote sent to me via PM during the Vote Phase counts.

Card Info:
There can only be one card at one time, the only exception is the Commoner card.
Every card is guaranteed to appear each Day in the vanilla YTTD version.

Vanilla Your Turn To Die (YTTD) Cards:
Keymaster - everyone loses if they are executed.
Sage - knows who the Keymaster is.
Sacrifice - wins if they receive the most votes, dies and loses otherwise, has two votes. Chooses one other player to win with if they win.
Commoner - no ability.


Game Flow

Handout Phase (Night 0)
Cards are assigned randomly to players.

Discussion/Trade Phase (Day 1, 48 hours)
Players discuss and secretly trade cards.
Once per game, each player is allowed to trade their card with another player. The player they trade with won't know who traded with them, but they'll learn what their new card is. The player that initiated the trade will also learn of the new card they received. The current Sage will know who the current Keymaster is, if the Keymaster changes they will know as long as they are the Sage.
Trades are processed in the order they are received via PM. However, the mod may purposely delay these trades to obfuscate trade timings to prevent metagaming. The order received will still stay true regardless. The mod will try to be active so that a big chain doesn't happen, unless trade actions are all submitted at the deadline. This is a valid strategy for players.
In the very unlikely event that two PMs are sent at the exact same time then the mod will flip a coin. The player whose trade didn't go through will be told how unlikely this is and how unlucky they are. They can try trading again at least.

Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase (Day 1, 24 hours)
During the last 24 hours of Day 1 no more trades will be accepted.
Players discuss who they are going to vote and why.

Vote Phase (Day 1, 24 hours)
The thread is locked.
Players PM the mod who they want to vote.
Self-votes are allowed.
Votes are anonymous.

In the event of a tie:
Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase 2 (Day 1, 24 hours)
If there is a tie, then a Phase 2 Discussin/Pre-Vote will be held for 24 hours.
Only the players that are tied with the most amount of votes will be allowed to be voted. They cannot vote anymore, but they are allowed to talk during the discussion.
The remaining players that are not eligible to be executed will discuss who they are going to vote.

Vote Phase 2 (Day 1, 24 hours)
Same as the first Vote Phase. If there's another tie this continues until there are no more ties.

Execution Phase (End of Day 1)
The player with the most votes is executed unless they are the Sacrifice. The game is over if the Sacrifice is executed. The Sacrifice wins and chooses another player that wins with them. The game is also over if the Keymaster is executed. Everybody loses if the Keymaster dies.
If the Sage or a Commoner is executed then the game continues. The executed player loses. The Sacrifice dies and loses.

Handout Phase 2 (Night 1)
New cards are assigned randomly to the remaining players.

These phases continue until the Sacrifice or Keymaster is executed or there are less than 5 players during the Night in which case the 3-4 surviving players win.



So basically the Sacrifice is allowed to decide if they want to hold onto the card and try to win that day or if they're able to they can trade it to somebody else and try to survive the game. The Sacrifice can also try to win over another player via PMs to join their side and vote them. If the Sacrifice loses enough then the remaining surviving players will win.

I think the secret day trade system will add a lot to this game. You can only trade once, so you have to decide whether you really want to use it today or save it for a possible tomorrow.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:59:11 am by ToonyMan »
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Skynet

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #744 on: February 11, 2021, 06:56:29 am »

Mass-claims are discouraged in the Discussion/Trade Phase because if you do claim, "Oh I'm the Keymaster, so please don't execute me or everyone loses - also, since no one will execute me, all I have to do is watch out for the Sacrifice victory and I'm golden". All that's going to happen is that some Commoner is going to do a force-trade, become the new Keymaster, and render you disposable. Unless you're intentionally trying to get someone to force-trade you because you actually have a role you don't want (like the Sacrifice).

That's an interesting dynamic. I'm guessing mass-claims would still occur in the Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase though, as roles are locked afterwards.

I think this game might work if it doesn't drag on for too long. Which means I think there should be only a few players...like 5. 1 Keymaster, 1 Sage, 1 Sacrifice, and 2 Commoners. Someone has to be executed for the rest of the Town to win...but who gets to be that unlucky person?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 07:04:31 am by Skynet »
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ToonyMan

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #745 on: February 11, 2021, 08:13:25 am »

Mass-claims are discouraged in the Discussion/Trade Phase because if you do claim, "Oh I'm the Keymaster, so please don't execute me or everyone loses - also, since no one will execute me, all I have to do is watch out for the Sacrifice victory and I'm golden". All that's going to happen is that some Commoner is going to do a force-trade, become the new Keymaster, and render you disposable. Unless you're intentionally trying to get someone to force-trade you because you actually have a role you don't want (like the Sacrifice).
That's an interesting dynamic. I'm guessing mass-claims would still occur in the Discussion/Pre-Vote Phase though, as roles are locked afterwards.
Yep. Claiming during the Trade Phase is a good way to lose (or keep) your card.

I want to have at least some of the day to have discussion with locked in roles. It might just turn into everyone claiming they're the Keymaster or Sage or Sacrifice but that's fine.

I think this game might work if it doesn't drag on for too long. Which means I think there should be only a few players...like 5. 1 Keymaster, 1 Sage, 1 Sacrifice, and 2 Commoners. Someone has to be executed for the rest of the Town to win...but who gets to be that unlucky person?
A one day version with only 5 or 6 players could work. The Sacrifice having two votes becomes more and more powerful so at that point they'd have the highest chance to win maybe. Otherwise an ideal setup would be 9 to 11 players which would last 3 or 4 days.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #746 on: February 11, 2021, 06:01:58 pm »

Anyone mind helping me analyze a 5-player mini-bastard setup? I've been inspired to run a quick but messy mini-game.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

IcyTea31

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #747 on: February 12, 2021, 05:10:54 am »

Anyone mind helping me analyze a 5-player mini-bastard setup? I've been inspired to run a quick but messy mini-game.
I can check it, sure. PM me.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #748 on: February 19, 2021, 02:48:23 pm »

Mmm, maybe later.

I have something with a different premise in mind at the moment.

Though it'll have to be put on the queue, and preferably wait until after some less complex games.

Flashback Mafia is a game where you can choose any role from a previous game of mafia on this subform to take for yourself, though I'd reserve the right to tweak and adjust and reformat the role as needed to make the game work acceptably.

There should probably be at least some additional caveats, though. Any thoughts?

(The idea is that if you had a cool role but died early or the game ended early, or if someone else had a role you'd like to try, you can snatch it for this game, though the end result will inevitably be a mess)
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

webadict

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #749 on: February 19, 2021, 02:53:17 pm »

Mmm, maybe later.

I have something with a different premise in mind at the moment.

Though it'll have to be put on the queue, and preferably wait until after some less complex games.

Flashback Mafia is a game where you can choose any role from a previous game of mafia on this subform to take for yourself, though I'd reserve the right to tweak and adjust and reformat the role as needed to make the game work acceptably.

There should probably be at least some additional caveats, though. Any thoughts?

(The idea is that if you had a cool role but died early or the game ended early, or if someone else had a role you'd like to try, you can snatch it for this game, though the end result will inevitably be a mess)
Aren't there, like, super broken roles in some games?
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