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[webadict]

Questions:
If you are being reflected and you action yourself, does the action actually happen? Also, if you are Radiant while being Reflected, do you Radiant before the Reflect or afterward? Do Reflects reflect reflected actions?
If you have all 2-point Autos, does Bless do anything?
Does Santa give Powers that the target already has?
If you Recycle a Power that is being used, does that action still succeed?
If an action is copied or Radianted that would only be able to happen once (Gift a target a Power/Point Share), would the copied/Radianted action fail?
If you Copycat yourself Copycating yourself while being Radiant, does everyone get Copycatted to you? Also, does the world end?

Suggestions:
-5 is a good cap for Flaws at the start. Doing so seems to prevent too much power.
Deep South should have your actions be able to be sent any time during the Day. This makes the game go by faster, at the cost of not allowing the information from the lynch to affect your action. In fact, if actions are NOT sent before the lynch, then they shouldn't really be counted at all. Otherwise, it's not really Nightless.

Possible Strong Role:
-4 from Flaws.
Free Innate Self Bless for 6.
Holy for 3.
Get free points in the forms of Autos, especially once you get Prolific and Flexible.

[notquitethere]

If you are being reflected and you action yourself, does the action actually happen?

No it happens: it just means the reflection was redundant. Reflection can be thought of as setting the target of the action to yourself even when it was already set to yourself.

Also, if you are Radiant while being Reflected, do you Radiant before the Reflect or afterward?

Reflect triggers first, changing your target to yourself, and then you would hit yourself and have that action radiate onto a random player.

Do Reflects reflect reflected actions?

No, as above, if you had reflect and targeted a kill on someone who had reflect, you would kill yourself: the first reflect would change the target to yourself, it would hit your reflect and change the target to yourself and then kill yourself. You don't get the FF7 situation where there's magic bouncing back and forth for eternity.

If you have all 2-point Autos, does Bless do anything?

Hmm, I'd have to make a ruling: either, no, it doesn't do anything; it starts giving you other autos of lower then higher value; or it just gives you duplicates of autos that you can sell off.

Does Santa give Powers that the target already has?

I think that's how I did it last time, and no one was unlucky enough to get the same power twice. Stacking up multiples of the same power still gives you things to sell or Gift or swap or whatever.

If you Recycle a Power that is being used, does that action still succeed?

In the previous game it acted as a roleblock, but in the Deep South variant it makes most sense just to destroy the power, not any current affects it might have given the player that used it.

If an action is copied or Radianted that would only be able to happen once (Gift a target a
Power/Point Share), would the copied/Radianted action fail?

My first instinct is to say, yeah, why not have duplicated gifting and sharing, but I suspect that'd be horribly abused by a clever scum team, so I'd probably err on one-off actions failing to copy (along with the scum-kill which is considered a strictly once-per-day action).

If you Copycat yourself Copycating yourself while being Radiant, does everyone get Copycatted to you? Also, does the world end?

Copycat doesn't work on mult-targeted actions, and copycat is a multi-targeted action, so thankfully I'm spared that headache.

-5 is a good cap for Flaws at the start. Doing so seems to prevent too much power.

Cool. It's decided.

Deep South should have your actions be able to be sent any time during the Day.

Yep, that's how it'll work.

In fact, if actions are NOT sent before the lynch, then they shouldn't really be counted at all. Otherwise, it's not really Nightless.

Actions sent while I'm processing the lynch won't count, but I'm considering allowing people to stack up conditional actions to trigger at the start of the day where it makes sense to get in early (like protects, blocks etc.)

Possible Strong Role:
-4 from Flaws.
Free Innate Self Bless for 6.
Holy for 3.
Get free points in the forms of Autos, especially once you get Prolific and Flexible.

That'd be nice. Slow run up, but so long as you survive the first phase or two could be pretty devastating.

[webadict]

I see. You don't process all the actions at the end of the day. You do it immediately. That's pretty harsh. I feel like it'd make protects pretty useless, as well as blocks. Bleh.

[flabort]

-5 is a good cap for Flaws at the start. Doing so seems to prevent too much power.

Cool. It's decided.

Nooooooooooo!
I'll have to drop hidden, and some of the flaws I picked, but I guess my choices still work. Oh, yeah, and drop scan, because I was only using that to qualify for Generous, to get more points, which I can't get now.

[notquitethere]

I see. You don't process all the actions at the end of the day. You do it immediately. That's pretty harsh. I feel like it'd make protects pretty useless, as well as blocks. Bleh.

Well, that's why I'd allow protects etc. to be set in advance. I thought about it both ways: but basically, the day is more exciting if there's constant new flow of actions happening throughout. Also, having everything suddenly hit at the lynch makes investigative roles less useful/interesting. Note that Protect is already very cheap: a player could potentially protect multiple people every day. I'm happy to hear out the alternative argument.

---

Thinking about buying and selling: I think I'll allow only one lot of buying and selling in a day (taken when they like), to prevent players with Flexible buying free-use powers, selling them off and then buying more free-use powers endlessly.

[Toaster]

You could just disallow selling a power you've used that day.

[notquitethere]

Oh that's good. Yes much more elegant. Ten points to King Toast. That's the rule now.

[notquitethere]

Anyone else got any gonzo gamebreaking builds? I'm sure scum could do something fun with prolific free copycat santas.

[Leafsnail]

I think Alignment Cop is still probably worthless and all townies should pick Suspicious, although at least the game won't be ripped apart by infallibility this time.

The main issues I see are
1) the town can easily make themselves completely unkillable, making this effectively a vanilla game with no nights
The only way the scum could break this is with an insane vote-stealer rush, but vote-stealer is very expensive and the town can lock down harder with super-saints to prevent this.  You could have Power Steal hit autos too (or make an Auto Steal power) to prevent auto-based breaking strategies?

2) The only way that scum stand a chance is if they have a lot of bussing.  It was the best defensive option last game and it's even better now, although I can't really suggest nerfing it because otherwise the game would be a town walkover.

[webadict]

I think Alignment Cop is still probably worthless and all townies should pick Suspicious, although at least the game won't be ripped apart by infallibility this time.

The main issues I see are
1) the town can easily make themselves completely unkillable, making this effectively a vanilla game with no nights
The only way the scum could break this is with an insane vote-stealer rush, but vote-stealer is very expensive and the town can lock down harder with super-saints to prevent this.  You could have Power Steal hit autos too (or make an Auto Steal power) to prevent auto-based breaking strategies?

2) The only way that scum stand a chance is if they have a lot of bussing.  It was the best defensive option last game and it's even better now, although I can't really suggest nerfing it because otherwise the game would be a town walkover.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. While there's no outright unbalance, you'll notice by Day 2 that the game has favored town for many reasons.

Oh that's good. Yes much more elegant. Ten points to King Toast. That's the rule now.

This rule can be broken by Free Self Recycle, which creates a huge problem, especially when mixed with the Auto that lets you sell back Autos. Basically, you invest in a bunch of Free actions and you can sell them back on that Day with Recycle.

[notquitethere]

I think Alignment Cop is still probably worthless and all townies should pick Suspicious, although at least the game won't be ripped apart by infallibility this time.

Might make Alignment Cop super cheap, essentially making it a 'did this person use one of their five flaw points on Suspicious?' check.

The main issues I see are
1) the town can easily make themselves completely unkillable, making this effectively a vanilla game with no nights
The only way the scum could break this is with an insane vote-stealer rush, but vote-stealer is very expensive and the town can lock down harder with super-saints to prevent this.  You could have Power Steal hit autos too (or make an Auto Steal power) to prevent auto-based breaking strategies?

The thing is, most players will want to have more active powers so most won't put most of their points into unkillable. But yeah, an autosteal power is a good addition.

2) The only way that scum stand a chance is if they have a lot of bussing.  It was the best defensive option last game and it's even better now, although I can't really suggest nerfing it because otherwise the game would be a town walkover.

See it's a hard thing, because a competent and well oiled scum team (exactly what there wasn't last time) could easily come up with any number of game breaking combos. The existence of Power Steal now is a potent weapon against the inevitable town mass-claim. Would you suggest any pro-scum additions?

This rule can be broken by Free Self Recycle, which creates a huge problem, especially when mixed with the Auto that lets you sell back Autos. Basically, you invest in a bunch of Free actions and you can sell them back on that Day with Recycle.

I'm borderline close to scrapping Recycle: it was too powerful in the first game and I'm not sure it adds enough to justify the potential for over-exploiting. I'll have a little think on it.

[4maskwolf]

My two cents: scrap recycle.

[notquitethere]

Okay, for reference, here's the latest power list. I've made the decision to scrap Recycle as being too anti-fun. Besides, we saw quite enough of the Vampire build last game. I'll consider bringing it back in some form if someone puts forward a decent counterargument. I've also scrapped alignment cop, frame and suspicious and so now there is absolutely no power difference between a town player and a scum player, they just have different wincons (scum as a team can still only make one kill a night though). I think this might encourage subtler scumhunting. Bus has been renamed Mask Swap for clarity.

Any powers people think could be interesting? Anyone think of any more trickery based powers like Gossip, Redirect or Mask Swap?

Spoiler: Current Power List (click to show/hide)

Powers
(no power can be self-targeting)
1 - Scan (spot how many points a target has)
1 - Inflate (Pick a power or auto that players can buy: after the next lynch it'll cost +1 point to buy that power for the rest of the game)
2 - Point Share (give any number of points that you have to a target)
2 - Count (find out the combined number of powers and autos a player has)
2 - Randomise (Randomises the all actions the target takes before the next lynch)
2 - Protect  (protects target against kills before the next lynch)
2 - Gift (give one of your powers to your target. Free- powers remain Free-.)
2 - Power Swap (swap any power you have, including Power Swap, with a random power your target has)
2 – Track (see who your target targets until the next lynch)
2 - Patrol (See the disguises of everyone who targets your target until the next lynch)
2 - Cleanse (One of targets flaws is removed, starting with any -2)
2 – Bless (Target gains a random 2-point auto)
3 - Peek (learn the player behind your target's mask)
3 - Gossip (you can produce a fake blatant report for the target. This overrides any normal blatant report, though the target needn't have blatant for gossip to work.)
3 - Redirect (redirect one target onto another (e.g. blue onto purple)
3 - Block (the targets actions before the next lynch will fail, but they won't know why)
3 – Mask Swap (permanently swap two disguises)
3 - Recycle (target player has all their powers cashed for full-point cost.)
3 - Curse (target player gains a random -2 point flaw)
3 - Sap (steal all a player's unspent points)
3 – Chat (Set up a private chat between any two other targets)
3 – Delayer (Target's next action before the lynch happens after the lynch instead)
4 – Copycat (Choose two targets, you perform all of player 1's phase actions on player 2. Doesn't work for converting or multi-targeted actions)
4 - Power Steal (name a power you think your target has, if you guess right you steal their power)
4 - Auto Steal (name a power you think your target had, if you guess right you steal their power)
4 - Santa (target player gains a random power)
4 - Changeling (target player gains all your powers/flaws/autos and you get the powers/flaws/autos of your target)
4 - Fortune Teller (Player recieves a list of half of all the powers, upgrades, autos and flaws in play, in alphabetical order)
4 - Power-Cop (choose one: learn all powers of the target, learn all auto/upgrades of target/learn all flaws of the target)
5 - Vote stealer (take the vote from any other target)
5 – Reflect (Any action (other than reflects) that would successfully hit the target, hits the actor instead)
6 - Hide (spend one point to become incapable of taking actions or being targeted until the next lynch; cannot use during the same action block as taking an action)
6 - Kill (kills target player)

Upgrades
(These are all attached to a specific power)
x/2 - Self-targeting- (pick a power: that power can, but does not have to, be self targeted. This upgrade costs half the cost of the power, rounded up.)
x/2 - Hidden- (pick a power: that powe and any upgrades attached to it won't appear in ability inspects, fortune teller reports or counts.)
x/2 - Innate- (An innate power cannot be stolen, swapped, recycled or Changeling'd
x - Free-: When choosing Free-, pick one of your non-auto powers. Free- costs as much as that power and allows you to use that power once in its phase for free. This use doesn't stack with Prolific (if you use prolific to use the same free-power twice, you'd use it three times, not four)

Autos
(Can only be taken once)
1 - Innocent (show up as town under inspect, this trumps Suspicious flaw)
1 - Bloodthirsty: get an extra point every time a lynch occurs with your vote on the player that gets lynched.
1 - Thrill-seeker: get two extra points every time a lynch occurs with the number of votes on you equal to or one point less than the player with the most votes)
1 - Professional: gain +1 point every time you successfully protect a kill
2 - Silent (you can't be tracked and you don't appear on patrol reports)
2 – Virtuous (you can't be gossiped about or framed)
2 - Immovable (you cannot be redirected or randomised)
2 - Unstoppable (can't be blocked or protected against. Immunities still apply)
2 - Cautious (you ignore any reflects on your target)
2 - Flexible (gets full point cost back for all cashed in powers/autos/upgrades except flexible itself)
2 – Industrious (other autos cost one less to purchase, to a minimum of 1)
2 – Hasty (You cannot be delayed and any attempts to copy your actions fail)
3 – Holy (cannot be cursed, blessings have a 50% chance of giving you an auto further down this list)
3 – Super-Saint (The person who casts the final lynch vote on you will also die)
3 – Radiant (Each time someone targets you, that action is also copied onto a random player)
3 – Hardy (you cannot be sapped or recycled)
4 - Prolific (you can use two actions in a phase)
4 - Explosive (you kill anyone targeting a kill at you as well as dying)
5 - Resurrection (After dying you come alive again: you still get any day xp etc, but this power disappears on use.)
5 - Double-Voter (you have two votes)
6 - Kill Immune - (you are immune to kills)

Flaws
A player can get more points on N0 only by taking flaws. These can be bought off later in the game for twice their initial cost. Each flaw can only be taken once.
-1 - Hardcore (all protects on you fail- cannot be taken alongside Kill Immune)
-1 - Dense (you gain no experience points for surviving the day)
-1 - Mercenary (all your powers cost one point to play. Must have at least one applicable power in order to take this flaw)
-1 - Blatant (every time you target a player, it will be announced at the end of the phase that you targeted them, but not what with)
-1  Minimalist (If you ever receive a power or auto (through Gift, Santa, Bless, Generous etc.) it is randomly given away to a non-minimalist player if there are any non-minimalist players alive.)
-2 – Generous (you have a 50% chance of giving away one of your powers to someone else (both randomly selected) after each lynch. Must have a relevant power to take this. This giving doesn't count as targeting for action-resolution purposes.)
-2 - Unable to vote
-2 - Unreliable (your powers and autos have a 50% chance of failure. Must have at least one power or auto in order to take this flaw)
-2 - Magnetic (powers have 50% chance of targeting yourself- must have at least one non-self-targeting power to take)
-2 - Cursed (at the end of each day phase, you gain 1 additional unique flaw)
-2 – Lover (a random living player is picked, if they die, so do you)
-2 – One-Shot (your powers disappear after they've been used. Must have at least one power to take.)
-2 - Intermittent (your powers only work on even phases)

[Leafsnail]

I disagree with scrapping something that works like recycle entirely, it's a good anti-gamebreak tool and it's not really overpowered now that it doesn't also block.  How about replacing it with an ability that disables the target's autos for the night?  That would continue to work against degenerate auto strategies while losing the "super roleblock" and "super power steal" aspects, and it would also fix the self-targeting problem.

[notquitethere]

Yeah, an autoblock power would be a interesting countermeasure. Scum teams could co-ordinate with one person blocking the autos on the kill target (though if that target had reflect, hilarity would ensue). But how would it be priced? That's a lot of potential point expenditure being nullifed.

Another power I was thinking of:

3 - Patsy: pick a new colour for a mask; that mask is now seen in-play (players always know how many masks are in-play and what colour they are). Like any mask, it can be a valid target for any power.