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[Bouchart]

Gearhead is certainly obtuse at times. Fun and unique though.
I'm not too sure about NetHack. I wouldn't call it "hard to master" if you want to win it. It's certainly so if you're playing casually but it's so heavy on the spoilers that once you spoil those it gets a lot easier pull a win. I've only played 3.4.3 though, I don't know how SLASH'EM & co. shuffled the deck.

Well I never beat NetHack, but I did manage to pull a win in ADOM, so I always though NetHack was harder.

But ADOM is no slouch.

The Doom Roguelike is easy to learn but hard to master, though.

As for generally complex RPGs, Arcanum is worth a look.

[puke]

I like the tastes of the people posting here.  I am looking for:

an open-world trading game or economic sim.  preferably sci-fi, but not necessarily.  not as old as Elite.  Similar to Privateer, or perhaps to some of the economic and deplomacy mods for M&B:WB. 

I like what you can do in the X games as far as building up an industry, but the economic systems seem broken, grindey, and overly easy to exploit.  Also, I dont like the focus on dog-fighting and dont have a joystick.  X sucks with mouse and keyboard.

Most of the economic aspects to games are just bolted on, or are boring grinds.  I'm hoping for something where it is a little more interesting, but not totally like playing a spreadsheet. 

Related:  Has anyone tried the _Starpoint Gemini 2_ alpha?

[Remuthra]

This is the best I can think of.

[puke]

ooh, played the heck out of that one.  It was fun, but the late game battles got absurd.

[Bouchart]

Capitalism Plus is an excellent economic sim but it's very dry.

Machiavelli the Prince is a renaissance era trading sim that is fairly open world for its time.

Monopoly Tycoon is an interesting sim where you operate businesses, but an individual playthrough is fairly short (1 hour of real time or so) and lacks a bit of replayability.

The Tropico series and SimIsle are city builders with some economic development aspects, but they are set in the Cold War era.

Can't think of any sci-fi ones off the top of my head.

[Remuthra]

Capitalism Plus is an excellent economic sim but it's very dry.

Machiavelli the Prince is a renaissance era trading sim that is fairly open world for its time.

Monopoly Tycoon is an interesting sim where you operate businesses, but an individual playthrough is fairly short (1 hour of real time or so) and lacks a bit of replayability.

The Tropico series and SimIsle are city builders with some economic development aspects, but they are set in the Cold War era.

Can't think of any sci-fi ones off the top of my head.

You've got Anno as well, if you're more looking for the economic city building/resource harvesting sort of thing.

As I recall they have a sci-fi spinoff, as well.

[aenri]

I'm looking for a complex RPG or Rougelike. The harder to master the better.

My current favorite games are Dwarf Fortress Adventure mode, Elona and Incursion:Halls of the Goblin King.

I.V.A.N. (Iter Vehemens ad Necem) - or any variant of it. Angband - or any variant of it (FuryBand or PoschengBand come to mind as "actively" developed right now, or you could get Sil if you are into Tolkien lore). Incavead or Infinite Cave Adventures. And there is also Classic Rogue.

Also Prospector, if you like sci-fi and aren't spredsheet loving enough for Aurora.

rougelike -

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[hachnslay]

I'm looking for a complex RPG or Rougelike. The harder to master the better.

My current favorite games are Dwarf Fortress Adventure mode, Elona and Incursion:Halls of the Goblin King.

I.V.A.N. (Iter Vehemens ad Necem) - or any variant of it. Angband - or any variant of it (FuryBand or PoschengBand come to mind as "actively" developed right now, or you could get Sil if you are into Tolkien lore). Incavead or Infinite Cave Adventures. And there is also Classic Rogue.

Also Prospector, if you like sci-fi and aren't spredsheet loving enough for Aurora.

rougelike -

I played most of them ad nauseam.  Trying incavead now, even though it seems quite simple.
I know i spelled it wrong, as you can see from my other post.

also: finished Bionic Dues on my first try on hard ... interesting gameplay low replayability. - took me 8 hours.  65 trap skill 35 sensor range and 20 turrets turn everything into swiss cheese that the game can throw at you. Place 8 turrets around you, whistle - wait for everything to run into their doom. 15 range laser rifle also helps.

[Levi]

I'm looking for a complex RPG or Rougelike. The harder to master the better.

My current favorite games are Dwarf Fortress Adventure mode, Elona and Incursion:Halls of the Goblin King.

I.V.A.N. (Iter Vehemens ad Necem) - or any variant of it. Angband - or any variant of it (FuryBand or PoschengBand come to mind as "actively" developed right now, or you could get Sil if you are into Tolkien lore). Incavead or Infinite Cave Adventures. And there is also Classic Rogue.

Also Prospector, if you like sci-fi and aren't spredsheet loving enough for Aurora.

rougelike -

I played most of them ad nauseam.  Trying incavead now, even though it seems quite simple.
I know i spelled it wrong, as you can see from my other post.

also: finished Bionic Dues on my first try on hard ... interesting gameplay low replayability. - took me 8 hours.  65 trap skill 35 sensor range and 20 turrets turn everything into swiss cheese that the game can throw at you. Place 8 turrets around you, whistle - wait for everything to run into their doom. 15 range laser rifle also helps.

Huh, I'm surprised they didn't fix that.  I remember doing it the same way. 

[Kaje]

Can someone reccomend me a free shooter game? It can be third or first person but shouldn't be too graphically demanding (Also no Planetside 2 or Ghost Recon). It doesn't have to be fast-paced but it should be enjoyable. Sorry if this is a bit vague.

Have you tried TF2? I've sunk many hours into it. Free to play, great fun, no pay to win.

I'm looking for a RPG with some level of hero recruiting and city building/base expansion component - similar to the Suikoden or Dark Cloud series I guess. Any platform, no Dwarf Fortress suggestions!

Have you tried some of these tactical RPGs?
Mount & Blade: warband
Jagged Alliance 2
valkyria chronicles

Or are you looking for more city management?
Perhaps the Majesty series?

Thanks for the suggestions, but those don't really fit the requirements (though are all awesome games).

I'm thinking more along the Dark Cloud style of game - RPG but with a town building element. Though the addition of Suikoden style hero recruitment would be great.

[puke]

I'm thinking more along the Dark Cloud style of game - RPG but with a town building element. Though the addition of Suikoden style hero recruitment would be great.

Oh man, Dark Cloud was great.  I'm not much of a console player, but let me take a quick shot: 

Have you tried _Beyond Good and Evil_ or _Heroes of a Broken Land_  ? 

There was also some weird game I think I saw on steam early access or greenlight or something, cant remember all the details... buy it was a weird post apocalyptic procedurally generated game.  it had a top down world map, and a side scrolling action portion.  and some sort of community / town building mechanic.

[Korbac]

Can someone reccomend me a free shooter game? It can be third or first person but shouldn't be too graphically demanding (Also no Planetside 2 or Ghost Recon). It doesn't have to be fast-paced but it should be enjoyable. Sorry if this is a bit vague.

Have you tried TF2? I've sunk many hours into it. Free to play, great fun, no pay to win.

I'm looking for a RPG with some level of hero recruiting and city building/base expansion component - similar to the Suikoden or Dark Cloud series I guess. Any platform, no Dwarf Fortress suggestions!

Have you tried some of these tactical RPGs?
Mount & Blade: warband
Jagged Alliance 2
valkyria chronicles

Or are you looking for more city management?
Perhaps the Majesty series?

Thanks for the suggestions, but those don't really fit the requirements (though are all awesome games).

I'm thinking more along the Dark Cloud style of game - RPG but with a town building element. Though the addition of Suikoden style hero recruitment would be great.

RPG with town building? Hath you tried SPELLFORCE?

[sackhead]

I like the tastes of the people posting here.  I am looking for:

an open-world trading game or economic sim.  preferably sci-fi, but not necessarily.  not as old as Elite.  Similar to Privateer, or perhaps to some of the economic and deplomacy mods for M&B:WB. 

their is an open source remake of elite called oolite with a bunch of good mods here is a link

[Anvilfolk]

There was an old game where you were a scrawny guy with a sword and tried to built up a town, then enemies attacked, then you'd build up some more. It was great fun, but I never got past a few days. Can't remember the name for the life of me though. Sounds like it could be something you'd like to try!

[Steelmagic]

There was an old game where you were a scrawny guy with a sword and tried to built up a town, then enemies attacked, then you'd build up some more. It was great fun, but I never got past a few days. Can't remember the name for the life of me though. Sounds like it could be something you'd like to try!

Was it Hinterland by any chance?