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Author Topic: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance  (Read 23698 times)

Urist McTeellox

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[ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« on: December 21, 2013, 10:56:53 pm »

You want [[Orc Rebalance]]
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 08:03:34 pm by Urist McTeellox »
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 12:26:01 am »

Smakemupagus is not active anymore. I know of no way of contacting him.

I have never done balancing on Orcs.

Orcs did share a few buildings and reactions (and probably still do) with Dwarves, which leads to strange conflicts. For example I changed the megabeast butchering for dwarves, not realizing that I would break it for th Orcs. Therefore several things might be broken.

Orcs are missing many of the new dfhack effects, like animal training or even forcing sieges as a result from raiding. Smake stopped developement before these existed.

"remove the existing distillery" => This is impossible.

"essence stones" => No. Please. I want to write a soul-system into the mod, each dead being leaves a soul upon being butchered. Dwarves use if for their religion system, Kobolds probably for their silly magic antics, Orcs I dont know, but Warlocks will make big use of them. Therefore please dont use this idea for Orcs. Makes no sense, Orcs plunder and pillage, but they dont live of death itself.
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 02:36:05 am »

Orcs did share a few buildings and reactions (and probably still do) with Dwarves, which leads to strange conflicts. For example I changed the megabeast butchering for dwarves, not realizing that I would break it for th Orcs. Therefore several things might be broken.

There are a few, but I've got a reasonably good idea what they are. I wouldn't mind putting megabeast butchering back in. ;)

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"remove the existing distillery" => This is impossible.

Oh DF, why do you do this to me? I'm guessing one can't disable any of the core buildings, nor any of the reactions in them?

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"essence stones" => No. Please. I want to write a soul-system into the mod, each dead being leaves a soul upon being butchered. Dwarves use if for their religion system, Kobolds probably for their silly magic antics, Orcs I dont know, but Warlocks will make big use of them. Therefore please dont use this idea for Orcs. Makes no sense, Orcs plunder and pillage, but they dont live off death itself.

Ah! We don't want the playable races to feel too similar, and even though orcs already use fallen enemies in some buildings and reactions (in the form of totems), we don't want to step on warlock toes.

In terms of feel, I want orcs to feel like you're itching for combat. Dwarves have their traps and megaprojects, kobolds have their poisons and pets, but if you're an orc, you're not afraid to get onto the battlefield and spill the blood of your foes. I don't think anyone's going to argue too much with that as a theme.

However orcs currently have a problem with itemcorpses. Presently, orcs end up with a lot of them, and because itemcorpses replace the corpses which would normally drop, the orcs miss out on things like leather, bone, and totems from their foes. (Orcish ethics are completely fine with butchering intelligent enemies.) So for orcs they're a double-whammy: not only do they miss out on the materials orcs need for their traditional workshops, but they end up with non-rotting clutter instead.

If orcs were the only race in the mod, we could replace itemcorpses with EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECTs, since orcish ethics allow them to butcher pretty much anything. However I believe that would completely mess up dwarves, because dwarves wouldn't do anything as disgusting as butcher an elf. (I presume this is why the current itemcorpses system exists.)

So, without stepping on the toes of warlocks, and while still keeping itemcorpses for dwarves, we can potentially solve the orcish itemcorpse problem by having "strip/butcher corpse" reactions at one of the oricsh workshops, and these become the only way to obtain foreign tools and blueprints. Raiding will still be important in gaining access to materials, some very basic blueprints, and provoking enemies to attack in the first place, but it's only through direct battle that one gains access to real technology.

One of the gotchas here is that currently that playable races don't drop itemcorpses, and that includes dwarves; who are not only a traditional enemy, but also have desirable technology. I'm guessing having playable races drop itemcorpses is going to seriously mess things up, so we'll need another system to deal with dwarves. Any suggestions or insights on how to jump this hurdle are particularly welcome.

Figuring out how to give orcs an appropriate yet difficult source of orichalcum still remains open. I could say there's a small chance per itemcorpse processed, but I don't know how to justify that thematically. Who walks around with a bar of orich in their pocket?

It also would be nice for orcs (and other non-dwarf races) to have enemies who are equivalent to goblins in toughness and materials. Drow, humans, elves, and dwarves all tend to arrive in steel-level armour, which for a new camp would make them very difficult indeed if they ever remembered to bring gloves and boots. ;)

~ T
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 02:54:11 am »

Itemcorpses will be gone, when I do the soul-system from butchery. I dislike the itemcorpses as well. I guess I can alter the biology lab, but even if it doesnt work out... its better to lose the biology if it fixes the itemcorpses. It was a stupid workaround.  :-X

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I'm guessing one can't disable any of the core buildings, nor any of the reactions in them?
Correct. Only soapmaker and screwpress can be removed in the entity file, all others are hardcoded.
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 03:22:12 am »

Itemcorpses will be gone, when I do the soul-system from butchery. I dislike the itemcorpses as well. I guess I can alter the biology lab, but even if it doesnt work out... its better to lose the biology if it fixes the itemcorpses. It was a stupid workaround.  :-X

You have no idea how happy I am to see this! :)  I was worried you might think they were the best thing ever.

If we are getting rid of itemcorpses, do you think it would make sense to have corpses with a EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT for personal effects? This would still allow one to search through them for tools and blueprints (if playing orcs), loot (if taken from kobolds), springs (if taken from automatons), etc.  Or do we even need that at all? I seem to recall an earlier vesion masterwork had kobolds carrying bags of loot; if we could have enemy commanders/sergeants carry a "commander/sergeant's pouch", that would be an obvious thing to react into rare drops. (It would make sense for antmen and clockworks to have extra butcher objects, though.)

If you're looking at replacing all itemcorpses with souls that drop (for dwarven religion, kobold tricks, etc), then would dreamwalker-only reactions for "absorb knowledge from soul" be too close to warlocks? The dreamwalker would enter a trance, use up the soul, and *may* produce a blueprint, craft a racial tool, or otherwise cause a rare drop (eg: a codex or mojo) to be created. Not all tranes would result in rare drops, some may just provide mild XP boosts.

On the topic of itemcorpses, I've changed all the generic 'corpse' ones to have names (eg: 'mutilated corpse' -> 'mutilated goblin corpse'.) I was certainly finding it hard to figure out which corpse was which previously. I trust that won't cause any issues.

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I'm guessing one can't disable any of the core buildings, nor any of the reactions in them?
Correct. Only soapmaker and screwpress can be removed in the entity file, all others are hardcoded.

Drat. But we can add extra reactions, right? If I'm 'butchering' itemcorpses, then it makes sense to do that at the butchery.

~ T
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mahrgell

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 07:47:18 am »

I like the idea of making ambushes in return of raiding more likely. To make killing those more meaningful (and necessary) how about not going the usual way of rewarding the player by giving him items something in return but instead do something more orcish. Orcs don't kill stuff because they want their moneybags... Orcs kill because they want to kill. So make orcs much more sensible about everything, maybe even add an automatic negative thought every few month... But increase the weight of positive thoughts coming from battle. So if you want happy orcs, your orcs have to kill stuff. Races getting itemrewards from the dead... Everyone has that, but that's not orcish at all.

So playing orcs would always be a fight against a tantrumspiral because orcs don't care about drinking some awesome booze in a huge engraved dining hall. So to solve your problems, you have to provoke the other races by raiding them and hope they siege/ambush you. (oh, and during happy periods you still have to raid them to get your stuff... thats how orcs work :D)
And then you send your cheesemaker out there to fight, because he has a depression. Orcish psychological treatment: You have a problem? - Go out there and fight that drow, no matter the result, your problem will be gone afterwards!

So to modify the thoughtweights:
- reduce positive thought from everydaylife needs and great drinks/architecture etc
- unavoidable negative thoughts when lacking fighting
- remove negative thoughts for (long) draft
- reduce negative thoughts from other orcs dying
- (more) positive thoughts for combat, injuries etc.
- maybe: add some reaction similar to dwarfen speakers, that creates a happy thought to all orcs passing by and requires a corpse

Adding the last idea would make orcs a bit easier to play, because they play a bit more like the other races (military and civilians seperated) while without that change it would make orcs even more unique, because there is no clear seperation between military and civilians. Everyone has to go out there from time to time or he will succumb to sadness!

mahrgell

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 07:51:21 am »

So in short:
You get killed by:
Dwarves: because they want you to leave em alone
Kobolds: because they want your stuff
Warlocks: because they want your soul
Orcs: because they just want to kill things to be happy... and you happened to be in the way.

migshark

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 08:27:49 am »

I like the re-balancing of the raiding and the changes to corpse-handling (the stripping for related loot - not the essence stuff), but I'm not too keen on the farming nerf. The Taiga Orcs seem to have been themed as more tribal than savage, with an affinity for colder climates represented by their ability to plant crops in a freezing winter. Nerfing farming skill rates for warrior castes seems fair, but I think the 'taiga' in their name should probably be represented by something that they actually do. Maybe playing around with climate-based enemies and farming penalties/boons would be a good way to introduce greater distinction between races?

I also like mahrgrell's automatic bad thought suggestion, but the first year without a fight would make it really dangerous if it's weighted too heavily. The head-on-a-stake type building is also a cool idea.
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fasquardon

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 08:30:30 am »

I think of Orcs as the "easy mode", mainly that is because they are bigger and don't need alcohol.  I must say, I've never used the raiding reactions while playing with orcs, since it has always seemed TOO easy.

I must say, I like the agricultural skills of the orcs.  It doesn't fit with my preconceptions of what is "orc-y", but it is different from the Dwarfs and the Kobolds.

Soul stones don't sound very orc-y, how about a similar system of "scalps".  Not specifically for use in magic, but something more wide-ranging than that.  So "scalps" would represent the clan's honour.  To do certain raiding, diplomacy or magic actions, the clan must prove that it has enough honour to the raiders, the diplomats or the spirits.  So raiders would only go raiding for a clan with enough honour to be associated with them, the scalps could either be a reagent that isn't consumed, or it is consumed, which means that you must prove your worthiness by scalping more enemies before a raiding party will work with you again.

fasquardon
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 09:04:12 am »

I must say, I like the agricultural skills of the orcs.  It doesn't fit with my preconceptions of what is "orc-y", but it is different from the Dwarfs and the Kobolds.
Quote from: migshark
I'm not too keen on the farming nerf

Okay, looks like I'm not nerfing farms then. That's less work for me. :)  You might see me do a 'farm free' LP at some point, though. :)

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Soul stones don't sound very orc-y, how about a similar system of "scalps".

Bless you! I've wanted something to show enemy kills; scalps are perfect, and can easily be adapted to work with itemcorpses! I might even be able to add an EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT to dwarves and cutebolds without breaking anything.

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So "scalps" would represent the clan's honour.  To do certain raiding, diplomacy or magic actions, the clan must prove that it has enough honour to the raiders, the diplomats or the spirits.  So raiders would only go raiding for a clan with enough honour to be associated with them, the scalps could either be a reagent that isn't consumed, or it is consumed, which means that you must prove your worthiness by scalping more enemies before a raiding party will work with you again.

I really like this. Higher level raids only unlock when sufficient scalps are gained. Perhaps enough scalps can be converted into a 'banner of honour'. These could be tiered ('lesser banner of honour', 'greater banner of honour', etc), and are thematic enough to justify their use in both raiding and building construction. I'd love to see the warrior's meadhall require banners of honour rather than gold and silver, for example.

I also love the idea of freeing totems for use as decorative buildings in dining halls, warrior tombs, and the like. (Seriously; I want each of my warriors to have a tomb filled with the skulls of their kills.)

Quote from: mahrgell
Orcs kill because they want to kill

Wait, can we modify thoughtweights? I certainly like the idea of orcs not minding fighting as much, and definitely not minding the draft. But I fear this may be falling into the realm of Things That Are Very Hard To Mod.

Thanks very much for your suggestions so far! I appreciate them very much!

Out of curiosity, does anyone have much experience with the later-game when playing orcs? I found activating some magic castes (eg, sorcerers) was much easier than others (eg, druids) simply because of relative abundance of items needed to craft the codexes.

~ T
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 09:23:46 am »

Top post has been updated with suggestions.

Out of curiosity, how do people feel about an enemy yielding:

* A scalp, used to create banners, or other displays of clan honour. (Non-consumable, used to construct advanced tier buildings, or run advanced reactions)
* A totemable object, primarily so one can decorate the camp with the skulls of vanquished enemies. (Decoration/trade only)
* A heart, used in some dreamwalker ceremonies and shamanistic magics (consumable).

I am eager to give orcs a non-cheesey way to heal from permanent injuries, and a ritual involving the consumption of the hearts of ones foes feels thematic here.  Likewise providing courage buffs from consuming a heart, or using them to generate dreamwalker item ammo also feels thematic.

~ T
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 12:05:20 pm »

Extra reactions can only be added to soapmaker, screwpress, quern, millstone, kitchen, brewer, tanner, smelter and kiln.

Previously I used itemcorpses for kobolds and automatons and frostgiants. They wouldnt leave corpses, but instead leave a bag of loot, a clockwork part or a bar of bifrost. I never used EBO items before.
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::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2013, 10:41:39 pm »

A few questions for everyone regarding building requirements and guns:

Blacksmoke furnace

The blacksmoke furnace is a pretty essential building for orcs, mostly because it provides a route for creating acid, which can be used to clean rust from bars.  However it requires iron bars to construct, putting Orcs in a bit of a catch-22. I order to turn rusty iron into iron, they need iron to begin with.

On a map with iron ore available, this isn't a problem, but if you're stuck without this essential metal, it can be pretty hard to obtain. Goblins won't trade it to you (they only have rusty iron). Warlocks and frost giants might, but they've felt weird as trading partners. And warlocks seem to bring mostly wacky items because they're insane. Invaders often have bloodsteel, or mithril. Iron itself is rare.

I propose changing the blacksmoke requirements to require ironbone bars, rather than iron bars. These are more easily constructed by orcs at the boneyard.

Totem pole

Currently requires ironbone (1 bar).
Previously required one totem, and two logs.

The graphic shows a skull, so I feel the totem + logs is more thematic, but feedback if it's felt it's better one way or the other is appreciated.

Guns and ammo

I need to do some testing with guns, but at least previously lead bullets would be stopped by cotton clothing, which felt wrong. I only presume it's too soft, as steel bullets kick ass. I want to upgrade the ammo provided by the raider trader; brass feels right here, but any feedback is appreciated. (Should I do iron, or something else instead?)

Many thanks

~ T
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2013, 10:49:08 pm »

If we implement the scalp/totem/heart idea, then the hearts will be used in the construction of soulgems (an existing item, by smake), rather than totems. This makes soulgems a little more difficult to obtain, since I'm proposing that hearts suitable for the reaction only come from the Great Races.

Mind you, current orcish soulgems aren't used for very much. You can summon a minotaur, add dawnstar/eveningstar prophecies to weapons, and craft gizmos as the steamforge.
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2013, 06:06:33 am »

Meph tells me he's definitely doing souls, and if that's something that all playable races can use, then orcs will use souls (rather than my suggestion of hearts) in their ritual magic.

I've updated the blacksmoke furnace to require ironbone rather than iron. I could be persuaded to give orcs a reaction to convert between iron and ironbone, since they're equivalent materials.

Also, for those who wish to follow along with development, I have a milestone open on github, with items I'm working on underneath. My changes are going into the `orc_rebalance` branch.

~ T
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