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[Superblackcat]

Tiruin, So you want me to be voting someone?

Why do you want me to vote someone?

Puffer: Could you give me ANY information Luke gave us by dying... Other than the fact that he was town.

ANY!

[makeinu]

Forgive me for my brevity, as RL as taken its toll on me.

Unlike many, I willingly forgive RL as an excuse for inactivity.  I've had many a day stolen from me with no notice.

This gives me pause:

...Well, I am very disappointed in Luke, to tell the honest truth. He could've invested more time, or at least given anything on what was happening to him IRL so we can judge it more. I mean, if anything is holding him up IRL, then he should say so lest the crude notion of 'I'm lurking (...despite the votes being on him)' stays.
..I was apprehensive on Luke's case given his last post as I was online for that day end but I couldn't let my vote lie and withdraw it.

Now, to explain my vote on LP. I admit that I haven't poured over everything--and the suspicion that Luke was pulling a quick and blatant tactic was strange. SELF-VOTING PULLS MUCH ON DOUBT AND DERISION. DO NOT DO THAT. Why? Here's my story.

I thought Luke was pulling a self-vote because of the common notion that 'why would a Mafioso even do such a thing?'. I chose to act against doubt and attack him with a pressure vote (which acts as a real vote if the target cannot reply, will not reply, or will give lacking response, and thus will be pushed).

Needless to say...it was..disappointing, the results.

While I, too, am disappointed in Luke (how do you draw Doctor and then play so ... what's even the right word .... weakly?), I'm curious what your apprehension was and why you didn't remove your vote after I did, making the vote a tie again? I have the excuse of incorrect assumption about tie votes as a new player here.

You don't.

You don't have to explain why you voted, I understand that, it was a pressure vote. But a pressure vote can't apply pressure to a player that isn't present to BE pressured. So, please, convince me of the merit in you not having unvoted in that case?

> The cop SHOULD DARN WELL CLAIM. In this, he can mark who is innocent or not//HOWEVER, Mafia can also fakeclaim Cop as an easy-win result, and if not counterclaimed or put to scrutiny, then their win is most likely assured.

As before, I'm ambivalent on this one, normally. However, given the circumstances, maybe my ambivalence is misplaced. The problem I see is this:

1) If the cop claims, and only has an Innocent claim, we're not closer to finding scum by much.
2) Claiming, whether the scum counter-claim or not, guarantees no report tomorrow.

So, I would say to the Cop, claim if you have a scum report, and make it convincing. If not, stay silent.

> The doctor, should preferably not claim given the context.

Color me confused here. You missed that Luke was the Doctor?

Everyone: Who is your most town-y suspect, and why? I've browsed in a skim that either I or Persus are on the top-townies. Why don't you think we're actually scum? Why do you prefer your current vote targets instead?

Because I can't point at anything that says inconsistency in much that either of you have posted, BUT most of what you both have posted reads more as general advice than game-specific. Such as this:

I will be transparent. Scum can use this time to confuddle the town into either making sure their targets are whom they are, and reinforce that notion--if you are town, defend yourself BUT ALSO try to check those attacking you; passivity is not a valid tactic here, at this time.

Yet, there's those bits above about Luke, and Persus has a few things in his posts as well, that I'm still considering.

Why do you hold your concepts more on what others say, instead of what you're willing to stand on. Are you more than sure about your targets and who you vote, or are you wavering in seeing what everyone else does?

...Why the heck did you vote yourself?

Because it doesn't matter. I don't hold my concepts, as you say, based on anything others say, though it's natural to react. And at the end yesterday, I realized I wasn't sure about my target. I wanted to be, I wanted to stand firm in my conviction that EP was scum, but on reflection I couldn't.

I've already explained why I voted for myself, and I pulled it so people would stop asking why.


@SBC: the only information I see from Luke's death is the scum can't claim Doctor. Which really isn't any information at all.

[Persus13]

Persus: What kind of player do you think is most likely to be scum? Please don't say 'Scummy'. What constitutes 'scummy'.

Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean by "what kind of player". Scum players are scum. I'm not an expert on scumhunting or in finding scum, but if someone's new and are looking scummy for playstyle reasons, I tend to ignore them and look at who's hunting them instead. From what little experience I've had, those players tend to be scum. That's why I've focused more on Puff and Elephant than makeinu.

What's your problem with me saying scummy? I prefer it because only two people in this game are 100% sure who the scum is. Cause if the Cop had gotten a guilty suspect last night s/he would have probably revealed it by now.

Persus and Tiruin are the two most experienced (on this forum anyway) players in this game. Tiruin keeps being mysteriously absent, and Persus keeps performing duties as IC and also steering the conversations to a degree.

I can't point to anything suspicious, but I think we've been neglecting the possibility that one or both are the scum we're hunting. I have to read back now.

I would hardly say I'm experienced. I've played a grand total of two full games on this forum, one of which I got NKed N1, and the other I partially caused a town loss because I was so focused on the scumminess of one player I neglected to think about other possibilities.  I'd say the most experienced players I've been with are Jim Groovestar and Toaster.

But I'll agree with you that Tiruin could be scum and that I've been doing my best to help people understand how this forum plays the game.

I thought Luke was pulling a self-vote because of the common notion that 'why would a Mafioso even do such a thing?'. I chose to act against doubt and attack him with a pressure vote (which acts as a real vote if the target cannot reply, will not reply, or will give lacking response, and thus will be pushed).

Oh, okay. That's an understandable reason. Besides Luke, who was your top scumpick D1?

Everyone: Who is your most town-y suspect, and why?

I have to say that for me it's probably makeinu. Despite some poor early play and multiple attacks, he seems to be trying to find scum. While he's done a few scummy actions, his reasoning behind his actions has seemed legitimate. Unless he does something that is I find very scummy, I doubt my vote will be on him day end.

Persus

Tiruin: I haven't heard anything from you today, what are your thoughts on Luke and Elephant dying and roleflips?

I find this peculiar. You voting me more on the gist of 'I want to hear from you.'
...
I will attack your vote. Why are you voting me with less of an assertive tone and more of a curious tone?

You've been in what, three and a half games with me now? I vote players when they disappear and I want to hear more from them, and either say something to that effect or ask specific questions. Do you want me to drag up every time I've done this? It's not like it's close to day end either. I have over 24 hours to change my vote if I deem it necessary. And the fact is that until your last two posts you had posted fewer times in the thread than Luke. Has that all been because of RL issues?

My thoughts on Luke stand as above, and on Elephant..well, I can't give anything on Elephant (I mean seriously, you want me to comment on a nightkill? Interesting.) but I am somewhat surprised on his actions.
Yesterday, EP read to me as a newbie-townie given his...flippancy [no malice intended], for lack of a word in my mind. Care-free is the best term I can attribute to him.

My top D1 scumpick got night killed, which indicates that the Mafia considered him town enough to kill. I was confused by that. I also was trying to think of something to start a conversation and that was the best one I got.

Puffer: Could you give me ANY information Luke gave us by dying... Other than the fact that he was town.

I second the motion.

> The doctor, should preferably not claim given the context.

Color me confused here. You missed that Luke was the Doctor?

I was confused by this too, but I think that section was just in general lylo advice.

[Superblackcat]

1) If the cop claims, and only has an Innocent claim, we're not closer to finding scum by much.
2) Claiming, whether the scum counter-claim or not, guarantees no report tomorrow.

So, I would say to the Cop, claim if you have a scum report, and make it convincing. If not, stay silent.

Uhh, Unless we are voting an inno of the cop...

Quote from: Superblackcat on Today at 08:10:31 pm
Persus: What kind of player do you think is most likely to be scum? Please don't say 'Scummy'. What constitutes 'scummy'.
Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean by "what kind of player". Scum players are scum. I'm not an expert on scumhunting or in finding scum, but if someone's new and are looking scummy for playstyle reasons, I tend to ignore them and look at who's hunting them instead. From what little experience I've had, those players tend to be scum. That's why I've focused more on Puff and Elephant than makeinu.

What's your problem with me saying scummy? I prefer it because only two people in this game are 100% sure who the scum is. Cause if the Cop had gotten a guilty suspect last night s/he would have probably revealed it by now.

What I want... Is exactly what you think makes up a scummy player (I don't mind using the word scummy, I just didn't want that to be your answer ;P). You say that XYZ players you come across are scum. So what are their habits? What do scum usually do in your mind, and what constitutes scumminess. What makes you think someone is scummy. I personally have a list (Not really) of things that I look for as markers for scum.

Also, Persus, What reason do you think there could be in scum killing EP? He had two people lynching him (Me included, though I wouldn't of stayed on him). It seems that the scum is drawing attention to themselves with this move.


The only reason, would incriminate yourself, which would be a wifom saying that you wouldn't kill him if you were scum, and thus you couldn't be scum, because killing him would draw attention to you. Uhhh. I don't like to think about wifoms. Do you have any other reason, not including a wifom, that he may have been killeD?


Uhh, Makeinu, EP, and Tiruin, All of you answer that too please.

[Gentlefish]

SBC:

Tiruin, So you want me to be voting someone?

Why do you want me to vote someone?

Puffer: Could you give me ANY information Luke gave us by dying... Other than the fact that he was town.

ANY!

Spoiler: Literally ALL of Luke_Prowler's posts up to his lynching, in order (click to show/hide)

1

@makeinu: It's a mafia tactic, where someone throws whats basically a baseless accusation to see how other people reaction. Usually followed by an unvote so to at least be fair.

Speaking of which, you seem quite quick to accuse, aye Elephant Parade  

2

Ah okay. Just making sure.

3

@Persus13: I'm not completely new at the game, but I've played exactly 2 games and it was a very long time ago. And I was not particularly good at it.

In that post, I was referring to the game. I would think that the mafia faction wouldn't do it, as they already know who the townies are, though perhaps they would do it to fish for the special roles. Or to just not look like mafia.

@Tiruin: Well, I don't think I'll need to adjust my play, as I don't have a play to adjust I guess rather than my usual tactic of just reading the thread and seeing who screws up first, I'll try to prod people for clues. I doubt I''l be as active as some of the others, though.

As how I will treat the mass, I'll take a page from the Inquisition. No one is above suspicion and claims of innocence are guilty of wasting my time.

@Pufferfish: I would think I would not need to convince you that someone else is scum, their own actions would be proof enough.

@Elephant Parade: Ah okay. Makes sense. Fake Edit: Yes, I read Tiruin's post too. I know what you're tying to do. And I am not stopping you from scumhunting, merely discouraging baseless accusations.

Also, I'd just like to say I love using the term "Scum".

4

Also, don't edit.

It's not an actual edit, you just posted before I was finish with my post and I got a notification and I added accordingly.

5

@Tiruin: LP is just fine

"Screwing up" would in this case means the same as you define it: Making mistakes. Specifically, slipping information they shouldn't know or a change in their speaking pattern if put under stress indicating they have something to hide.

As for no mistake, well, I don't expect that since it is a Beginner's Mafia game, but in the case that it happens I would look at whoever is the most or least talkive they might be trying to cover themselves or trying to avoid attention, or wait until new information is gleamed.

@Favorite person: I can't say I know anyone enough to have a favorite. there's some people who I'm more friendly towards than others, but I just don't post often enough to justify a favorite.

Also, in case I forget Unvote

6

makeinu: I'm particular to those roles that let the play scan another player at night for their role. Feel useful a night cycle without the risk of getting hoisted by your own power like with cop.

Also, you've been particularly quiet, Luke_Prowler. What devious plans do you hide...

@Pufferfish: Do you fear being eliminated? By either town or mafia.

7

@Makeinu: lack of sleep and general whimsicalness

((Note that here is where he had stopped responding to us up until his last post.))
8

Trying to Read the rest of the posts, the thread exploded five pages before I woke up!

Unvote, before I kill myself

He made eight posts. can you tell me how this was helpful to the town in ANY WAY except for the fact that he was town?

I can give you something, for sure. Two people voted on him. That means up to two of us who voted COULD be mafia. COULD.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and forgot :<  unvote

As of now, Puffer seems the most suspicious to me.

Why did you vote Luke? Be the 2nd not Luke to vote him.

As for why I voted Luke, I'm sure you'll find the answer in this post, under my response to Tiruin.

What do you mean by "Be the 2nd not Luke to vote him"? Again, are you accusing me of bandwagoning? I had my case against him but I was wrong. It happens in Mafia.


Persus:

Seriously Makeinu, why are you voting yourself?

SBC: So you're still voting Makeinu despite taking back the reason you voted him. Do you still think he's scum for other reasons?

Puff: You've asked me who my top scumpicks are. How about you, who are your top scumpicks?

Currently SuperBlackCat is my number 1 scum. You're my number 2, tied with Tiruin.


Tiruin:

Forgive me for my brevity, as RL as taken its toll on me.

It is LYLO
Lynch, or Lose.
Town Perspective: LYNCH MAFIA, OR LOSE THE GAME.
Mafia Perspective: MISLYNCH.

This is the crucial point in the game where we discard trivialities and instead, regain lost ground--take on what is pertinent, and build our cases on such. We stop nitpicking, and start shooting. This is the best time to use our Extend (I'm voting for an extend, given the all-bold text ) given the deal of this case. Here, it is in everyone's best motive to:
> Explain themselves, their votes, and how they generally see everyone else.
> The cop SHOULD DARN WELL CLAIM. In this, he can mark who is innocent or not//HOWEVER, Mafia can also fakeclaim Cop as an easy-win result, and if not counterclaimed or put to scrutiny, then their win is most likely assured.

This. For this round, I'm considering anyone who roleclaims cop as instant, irredeemable scum.

I WOULD LIKE EVERYONE TO LOOK BACK AND CHECK..RECHECK AND DOUBLY RECHECK IN PUBLIC THEIR SUSPICIONS.

Everyone: Who is your most town-y suspect, and why? I've browsed in a skim that either I or Persus are on the top-townies. Why don't you think we're actually scum? Why do you prefer your current vote targets instead?

Oddly enough, it's Makeinu.

I'm going to be condensing my case tonight if possible on my #1.

Puff: I only skimmed in the latest moment and am curious--what did you see in Luke at the time being?
What value do you see in others' views of you?
Why do you think your target--referring to what I'm saying above in the general text--is a valid one for your vote? Compared to an easy-newbie scum, how does he perform?

I will be looking back and posting soon enough. Severe apologies.

In Luke? I saw a role that was not giving any information and I consider those to be some of the more dangerous roles, as later in the game, people often look over a lurker if he posts -just- enough. Which is why I think Squill made it so far in the previous BM, as the comments towards him, even endgame were "I can't tell if he's town or scum, he hasn't really posted enough to get a good read" and no one pressured him into questioning

What value do you see in others' views of you?

As in, what do I think others think of me?

and for the last question, are you referring to Luke or my current #1 scum pick, SBC? And what do you mean by easy-newbie scum?


PPE:

What reason do you think there could be in scum killing EP? He had two people lynching him (Me included, though I wouldn't of stayed on him). It seems that the scum is drawing attention to themselves with this move.


The only reason, would incriminate yourself, which would be a wifom saying that you wouldn't kill him if you were scum, and thus you couldn't be scum, because killing him would draw attention to you. Uhhh. I don't like to think about wifoms. Do you have any other reason, not including a wifom, that he may have been killeD?

It's all WiFoM from here on night-kills. I only briefly speculate upon them, and I would hazard the reckless guesses that wither EP was onto something, or that they killed him to make us think he was onto something.

See, all answers have a contradictory side to them.

[Superblackcat]

Puffer:

SBC:

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 07, 2013, 09:07:30 pm
Tiruin, So you want me to be voting someone?

Why do you want me to vote someone?

Puffer: Could you give me ANY information Luke gave us by dying... Other than the fact that he was town.

ANY!

Spoiler: Literally ALL of Luke_Prowler's posts up to his lynching, in order (click to show/hide)

He made eight posts. can you tell me how this was helpful to the town in ANY WAY except for the fact that he was town?

I can give you something, for sure. Two people voted on him. That means up to two of us who voted COULD be mafia. COULD.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 07, 2013, 08:04:22 pm
Sorry, I was in a hurry and forgot :<  unvote

As of now, Puffer seems the most suspicious to me.

Why did you vote Luke? Be the 2nd not Luke to vote him.

As for why I voted Luke, I'm sure you'll find the answer in this post, under my response to Tiruin.

What do you mean by "Be the 2nd not Luke to vote him"? Again, are you accusing me of bandwagoning? I had my case against him but I was wrong. It happens in Mafia.

To be the 2nd person to jump onto a band wagon... usually is someone trying not to be noticed. That raises a red flag. Especially if the post doesn't include much information so that people skim over it. Yours did not. It was very short compared to your usual posts, and it addressed two people, Make and Luke. Two questions, and less pressuring on Makeinu. I would've skimmed over it if I wasn't looking for it.

Don't you think by killing a more scummy, More viable person... would've given you more information?

This. For this round, I'm considering anyone who roleclaims cop as instant, irredeemable scum.

So you force our cop into not outing... basically making him totally useless. Why? Roleclaiming is a viable, and in fact very useful tactic in mafia. If only more people used it. I very do not like this sentence.

Puffer: Why do you think that it is such a bad tactic.

Too many scummy things has built up. I've already said how I didn't like some of his posts earlier, now it's gotten worse.

When you compare Luke and Squill... Wait you can't. It's two different people. Squill was actually active lurking, Luke was just gone... Probably asleep. I don't know why he didn't come check this. But I can't really. I don't stalk him. (Or maybe I do ).

Persus: What do you think is your most scummy action thus far into this game.

[makeinu]

1) If the cop claims, and only has an Innocent claim, we're not closer to finding scum by much.
2) Claiming, whether the scum counter-claim or not, guarantees no report tomorrow.

So, I would say to the Cop, claim if you have a scum report, and make it convincing. If not, stay silent.

Uhh, Unless we are voting an inno of the cop...

By which I think you're reiterating your point before, that if we're set to lynch and the cop has confirmed town alignment, they should speak up. On that, we're in agreement, BUT we run the risk of having a scum false- or counter-claim if they wait too long. In fact, no matter what happens, we face that, and have no way to easily sort it out.

Conundrum.

I like the idea of the cop claiming, and earlier is better, because it gives more time to sort the claim. A last-minute claim is actually counter-productive for the Town, as it only serves to sow doubt right before the day ends. I won't agree that a cop-claim now is insta-scum, but it won't be taken without a grain of  salt, that's for certain.

I'm not an expert on scumhunting or in finding scum, but if someone's new and are looking scummy for playstyle reasons, I tend to ignore them and look at who's hunting them instead. From what little experience I've had, those players tend to be scum. That's why I've focused more on Puff and Elephant than makeinu.

Which is in contradiction to where your vote ended the day yesterday: on me. For a reason I still do not fathom. Something to do with something I said about Luke; the reasoning, if it can be called such, is baffling.

PPE: actually, it makes sense if you knew Luke was town, and there's only one way you could have known that.

Also, Persus, What reason do you think there could be in scum killing EP? He had two people lynching him (Me included, though I wouldn't of stayed on him). It seems that the scum is drawing attention to themselves with this move.

No, again, your vote was on me. Persus and I were voting for EP, until the end of the day. And then, stuff happened.

The only reason, would incriminate yourself, which would be a wifom saying that you wouldn't kill him if you were scum, and thus you couldn't be scum, because killing him would draw attention to you. Uhhh. I don't like to think about wifoms. Do you have any other reason, not including a wifom, that he may have been killeD?

So your statements above are inaccurate in several ways. Either you can't keep track of your own posts, or you're blowing smoke. I'm inclined to the latter. That's how I sort WIFOM: assume that the one bringing it up is trying to confuse the issue. That, to me, is a scum-tell. If you're facing WIFOM, talk it out in your head. Public WIFOM doesn't serve the Town, it reinforces their own doubts.

Vote Superblackcat.

[Superblackcat]

Quote
I'm not an expert on scumhunting or in finding scum, but if someone's new and are looking scummy for playstyle reasons, I tend to ignore them and look at who's hunting them instead. From what little experience I've had, those players tend to be scum. That's why I've focused more on Puff and Elephant than makeinu.

Which is in contradiction to where your vote ended the day yesterday: on me. For a reason I still do not fathom. Something to do with something I said about Luke; the reasoning, if it can be called such, is baffling.

PPE: actually, it makes sense if you knew Luke was town, and there's only one way you could have known that.




That was posted by Persus... Alright?


Also, I'm sorry, I meant three on EP, and then I left, and it became 2.

But scum chooses their kill during the day, so it may have been while I was still on EP that they chose it

[Gentlefish]

Quote
I'm not an expert on scumhunting or in finding scum, but if someone's new and are looking scummy for playstyle reasons, I tend to ignore them and look at who's hunting them instead. From what little experience I've had, those players tend to be scum. That's why I've focused more on Puff and Elephant than makeinu.

Which is in contradiction to where your vote ended the day yesterday: on me. For a reason I still do not fathom. Something to do with something I said about Luke; the reasoning, if it can be called such, is baffling.

PPE: actually, it makes sense if you knew Luke was town, and there's only one way you could have known that.




That was posted by Persus... Alright?


Also, I'm sorry, I meant three on EP, and then I left, and it became 2.

But scum chooses their kill during the day, so it may have been while I was still on EP that they chose it

Can you give us a quote linking to that post that Persus made?

[makeinu]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133901.msg4819293#msg4819293

[Superblackcat]

Makeinu, did it clear things up? That you misread the thing? Or am I missing something?

[makeinu]

Makeinu, did it clear things up? That you misread the thing? Or am I missing something?

No. If anything, reviewing everything, I'm more confused.

For example, why did you ask this:

Makeinu, EP, and Tiruin, All of you answer that too please.

Your seeming inability to quote properly and track who's alive and who's dead makes it very hard to suss what you're even trying to say. You're all over the place and I can see only two options:

1) You're scum, trying to baffle us with bullshit, or
2) you're Town, and really just aren't making any coherent argument.

Unfortunately, the whole thing is WIFOM either way, because I can see how either case could be made.

So I don't know what to think.

I  am inclined to think, given that you and Pufferfish have consistently at each other means that you're both playing a good game of mind-fuck as a scum team, one of you is paired with Persus or Tiruin, or you're both as lost as I am. That I can't figure out which troubles me, because it means we're doomed to lose.

I'm going to call for this: the cop needs to claim, now, if there's anything, and I mean ANYthing that you can add. They'll die tonight if they do, but it'll clear or incriminate someone, and we're at LyLo. We need information, and the only reason not to claim is if the order was for Luke or EP, and they weren't allowed to change it.

[Superblackcat]

Oh man, I sincerely meant Persus...


I really should sleep... Yep Yep.

(Cop Out... PLEASE, Don't wait for scum to pretend out please ;-;)

[Gentlefish]

Before I go to bed.

Something helpful I think.

Spoiler: last posts and last votes (click to show/hide)

ZombieTracker

Author	Last Posted:	Last Vote:
makeinu:	8 minutes ago	Superblackcat.
Superblackcat:	1 hours ago	Puffer
Pufferfish:	2 hours ago	unvote
Persus13:	5 hours ago	Tiruin
Tiruin:	7 hours ago
Elephant Parade:	40 hours ago
Luke_Prowler:	41 hours ago
Moderator - notquitethere:	11 hours ago
NonPlayer - lordnincompoop:	22 hours ago

Go here and copy the thread url below in

Code: [Select]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133901.0
So see the posts made by everyone who ever posted in this thread.

To do it.

[makeinu]

Persus: Very Serious Question time.



Which of these is true? This:

I would hardly say I'm experienced. I've played a grand total of two full games on this forum,

or this:

You've been in what, three and a half games with me now?

You tell me that you've been in two mafia games here, and question Tiruin that you've been in three and a half with her. Which is true?

(How does one play half a game? I assume replace out?)

Further, you quoted and commented on Tiruin's thoughts about the deaths and role-flips, but no comment on this:

...Well, I am very disappointed in Luke, to tell the honest truth. He could've invested more time, or at least given anything on what was happening to him IRL so we can judge it more. I mean, if anything is holding him up IRL, then he should say so lest the crude notion of 'I'm lurking (...despite the votes being on him)' stays.
..I was apprehensive on Luke's case given his last post as I was online for that day end but I couldn't let my vote lie and withdraw it.

That part of Tiruin's post really bothers me, I've mentioned it twice now, and you have no comment for it. Why?

I know she hasn't had a chance to answer to that, I hope she does soon, because I really want to know why, if she didn't actually suspect Luke, she let him die.

Tiruin: why didn't you at least post to tell me that a tie vote is a no-lynch?