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[Elorf]

OOC: Well, I suppose we can hold you guild leaders accountable to our clay based needs, yes?

IC: I suppose that we will have to consider your suggestion, and would request you give me time to turn it over in my head. But at first, I have a few things to note; the idea of factory guards is simply impossible. We have barely a military for our whole settlement, let alone to defend a single factory. If you potters wish for personal defence, then you may have to rely on your own combat skills.

We do not have a solid military and you ask for guards? Perhaps we could spare some dogs to guard the perimeter, alert us so we can deploy our military to your location.

Ah, the factory does not need an entire army of guards, only a small group of dwarves skilled in fending off goblins. For if the goblin force attacks once again, and I am sure they will attack again, the factory would be an easy picking. The skilled potters and haulers would all be trapped in the building. A terrible loss of skill if you ask me.

Although if amount of strong dwarves is that low then I suppose several dogs at the entrance will do.

Secondly, we have yet to have serfs, for there is no proper serfdom in effect, so you are merely workers of our community, of the same standard as all others. Sure, you may be organized, but of what particular worth are you?

That said, pottery is such an undervalued art, so perhaps it could be good to have a guild of training artisans. Of course you main duty would remain to construct bricks, but your guild would ensure the quality of our goods, yes?

You ask for more privileges for the same work? Are you better than the rest of the people? Pursuing better methods is your duty to yourself as a worker.

I probably phrased "more privileges" wrong... What I meant was that potters would have the assurance of a bedroom and work.
I am all for training our potters to become to best.

OOC: Does this come off as too negative/rambling? I'm not saying guild members should not get privileges, but that perhaps these privileges should be directly linked to their work that are not available to non-guild members. IE, Guild members get to sleep in the factory bedrooms, guild members get to use factory workshops and work alongside better clay-workers. Non-guild clay-workers would be hard pressed to practice their craft.

Suppose what I'm trying to say with my rather inept words is that guild clay workers should have better rights than non-guild clay-workers, but not necessarily more than, say, the guild-less carpenters. So in effect, the guild decides who gets to learn the art of pottery.

I suppose someone with a better understanding of real-life guilds could give better ideas, but there's my two cents.

Not too negative at all, I knew that my proposal was a bit shaky so I'm happy with the comments.
Yeah, members of the guild will be able to work in the factory (best kilns around) and get their own bedroom. Something not every dwarf has.

IC
Just a few obvious thoughts:
We are yet to build the factory, nor choose where to do so, is a guild appropriate at this time?
You wish to own the land, but we have not agreed on what land it will be built on, until we have it would be ridiculous to agree to that.

Not that I object to a guild, but it is too soon, and you have not thought it out.
Perhaps you should have discussed it with a willing council member or others.

For:0
Against:1

The creation of the guild will make employing right people (skilled potters) for the factory a lot easier.
The surrounding lands would be for expansion. If more facilities are needed for the factory it would be handy to have the space. I agree that claiming the land now may be a bit hasty, but some surrounding space has to be ensured.

Want to support it, really do, but the guards and owning unspecified land is a deal breaker. Privileges of some sort could be allowed.
Also you insulted Cain, or at least he feels insulted.
 
Well for guilds, how about they have influence, members gain and lose influence related to their position (heads gaining the full benefit while members gain a quarter) and how the guild is seen by the people. So a head of a guild with 10 influence would gain 10 and the members would gain 2 (rounding down). Might be a bit OP since a player would likely be the head, so yeah, OP, maybe a watered down version.

Good grief, it wasn't my intention to insult Cain. Although could you explain why you feel insulted? Is it the shoddy-written proposal?

Maybe the guild itself should have influence instead of the members. The influence would be based on how the members act. For example, an artifact made by a member or killing a megabeast would improve the influence. Or the influence of a guild is the sum of all its members influence.

I tried to answer your doubts as good as I can, otherwise just keep asking.

[kero42]

OOC: Well, with that definition of privileges, I find no problems with the proposal. I will continue to think it over before voting, to see if there are any other issues. I too wonder how Cain was insulted, perhaps there is some odd IC quirk of his that we are unaware of?

[Cain12]

OOC
Oh the insult is nothing, it isn't actually factoring in on his decision so don't worry. Well you have ignored him, and IC "quirks" as Kero said, so he is slightly peeved. Nothing really.

Like the idea of an artifact affecting the particular dwarf, and the guild as a whole, but the megabeast doesn't seem like it should affect the guild itself, just the person, they are the hero, their position as a member of a guild not related to fighting is unimportant to that.

IC
Our current military is a small group, untrained peasants and few trained soldiers, dedicated guards is asking too much for an extravagant factory for brick makers.

We currently are short on dwarfs that can fend off goblins, could probaly spare a few who are still in working shape from 130 if we must, will have to find people willing, dogs are more available. But dogs would be the most I would spare if possible, the soldiers should be protecting the people at large.

I do not object to claiming land, that is fair, but I would see where, not vague statements of "surrounding land" of a factory that has not be built, maybe tell me where the factory will be for sure, so I know what land we are giving you, we may also have plans for this land as well.

These privileges are fine, better than what anyone else has, but I still have to reject the current proposal since it is not up to scratch and my personal disagreements on distribution of resources. Clay was only a temporary fix until the we had stone again.

[TeleDwarf]

*Teledwarf frowns upon the picky senators.
Gentlemen, politicians as experienced as you should be able to read between the lines better.
What does Elorf propose? Nothing, really. He just claims his right to work and live in the future factory on a permanent basis. That is it. All the other claims and plans are just that - empty blatter. Any general privileges and rights will have to be approved by the ruling body. We have exactly one potter at the moment, and serfs help with clay gathering. So if that potter wants to call himself a guild and have a pile of bricks as his symbol - why not? If some other mentionable will desire to join the "guild" - why do we care?

The only question here is - will we give relatively lavish quarters in the factory to the Elorf or not? I do not see any problems with that.

If there will be actually a guild of more then one member - we will have to decide if we want to enclose the factory usage within the guild or give them any votes on council or give them a few sets of armor so that they can fend themselves. But as it stands - these questions are not detailed in any way in this proposals, so they are just a general direction Elorf tells us he will follow. Nothing more.

Fake edit: Oh, the assistants tell me that he does claim whole factory into his "guild" possession. Well, that is way too big for only one dwarf.

Elorf Moltenrag (+2 ) Proposes the Potters Guild
For:0
Against:2

[Mr.Mountain]

Suppose it depends on what you want, could tell you the current full-time soldiers myself, for stuff like skill levels, gear, wounds, we would either need Teledwarf to look at it (unadvised, don't want to give him more work than needed) for us or the latest save (provided he has played any since the last upload, otherwise we already have access to it) so we can find whatever we need ourselves.

Ah yes, my pardons. I suppose a thorough military logistics report would be more suitable. Just a report of our actual full time dwarves in the military (no need for descriptions, just the names), their equipment, any current medical diagnoses, and any items that are directly available to the military (unless there are no direct stockpiles for the military) would be fine.
I hate to feel like I'm asking for too much, so lmk if this is isn't possible   

[Elorf]

OOC
Oh the insult is nothing, it isn't actually factoring in on his decision so don't worry. Well you have ignored him, and IC "quirks" as Kero said, so he is slightly peeved. Nothing really.

Like the idea of an artifact affecting the particular dwarf, and the guild as a whole, but the megabeast doesn't seem like it should affect the guild itself, just the person, they are the hero, their position as a member of a guild not related to fighting is unimportant to that.

Will try to remember to bug the Citizen Liaison first before I propose something.

True that, killing a megabeast would be more important for a Fighters guild than for a Potters guild.
Although it could also be based on small things, if for example the Longhall was adorned with masterful statues that would improve the reputation of the guild that made them.

IC
Our current military is a small group, untrained peasants and few trained soldiers, dedicated guards is asking too much for an extravagant factory for brick makers.

We currently are short on dwarfs that can fend off goblins, could probaly spare a few who are still in working shape from 130 if we must, will have to find people willing, dogs are more available. But dogs would be the most I would spare if possible, the soldiers should be protecting the people at large.

I do not object to claiming land, that is fair, but I would see where, not vague statements of "surrounding land" of a factory that has not be built, maybe tell me where the factory will be for sure, so I know what land we are giving you, we may also have plans for this land as well.

These privileges are fine, better than what anyone else has, but I still have to reject the current proposal since it is not up to scratch and my personal disagreements on distribution of resources. Clay was only a temporary fix until the we had stone again.

Alright, I give in, no more guards. The Factory will survive with some dogs guarding it I guess.

I  merely provide the design, where it gets build is a matter for the council.

Oh? From the note that was given to me I read that walls and roofs will be made with bricks. Besides, building with stone is something every dwarven city does.

OOC:
The note that I was referring to: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133733.msg4864146#msg4864146
From that I concluded that bricks will be a main component of most buildings, hence why the Brick Factory is Big.

We have exactly one potter at the moment

One potter... The entire Brick Factory relies on one potter to make bricks? We need more people trained to keep it rolling and actually provide resources for the future buildings.

OOC:
I didn't realize that Elorf was the only potter... It makes the guild idea feel rather silly now 

Edit: That reminds, a group doesn't need the approval of the council right?

[Cain12]

OOC
Well its not that you need to speak with the Citizen Liaison, still not quite sure when people are to talk to him or not, was that he visited you asking to speak and got no response. (so a pm, I personally don't care much, but it would be weird if he wasn't bothered a little).

IC
Yes we are to use clay for some parts, roofs, but a small group in a medium size building would be able to provide that much. The walls were to be clay brick until we had stone, stone is stronger and we know how to work it the same if not better than clay. This was because of a miner's mistake that we were forced to make this compromise and rely on your craft for more than we would like.

OOC
Edit:I'm not sure.

[TeleDwarf]

One potter... The entire Brick Factory relies on one potter to make bricks? We need more people trained to keep it rolling and actually provide resources for the future buildings.

OOC:
I didn't realize that Elorf was the only potter... It makes the guild idea feel rather silly now 

Edit: That reminds, a group doesn't need the approval of the council right?

OOC:
Legendary dwarves are a great asset in the fortress. Especially if quality of the result depends on the skill level.
And pottery is a very special craft, where acquisition of a clay "boulder" takes more time then actually making some bricks.
That led me, naturally, to the idea that having 5 clay collectors and 1 potter is quite nice for starters. And since we now have a potter who wants to be a potter guild master - naturally he will be the one to churn out bricks.
The collectors are the generally unskilled dwarves with a serf profession - they have almost everything turned on, and provide hauling collecting, planting, processing and so on...

Now what can an aspiring guild master do? First of all it would help a great deal to become legendary. Just so he has something to argue with. Of course he could as well decide to shuffle some clay instead, but that would only mean that council will most likely order me to find some other candidate and train him instead.

Once legendary, a guild master legendary potter could decide what to do and what to do with whatever he did
That means that he could grease some gears by presenting or promising to present some legendary statues of the senators to those senators, help design their manors, etc... or threaten to go on strike, requiring a long process of potter training to be done again. This will most likely boost his chances of influencing senatorial votes, and, for example, creating serf class.

Then purchasing some serfs and training them in whatever guild master wishes would be possible.

Other way around would be to play more socially and make friends and acquire members to the guild by befriending people and convincing them to join the guild or give you their mentionables for the training.

Yes, I do not see why grouping together should be the matter of senatorial attention. Unless someone pushes through a law forbidding public gatherings

[Elorf]

OOC:
Legendary dwarves are a great asset in the fortress. Especially if quality of the result depends on the skill level.
And pottery is a very special craft, where acquisition of a clay "boulder" takes more time then actually making some bricks.
That led me, naturally, to the idea that having 5 clay collectors and 1 potter is quite nice for starters. And since we now have a potter who wants to be a potter guild master - naturally he will be the one to churn out bricks.

Why was the brick factory design approved though? It's way too big for a single legendary potter and his followers.

Now what can an aspiring guild master do? First of all it would help a great deal to become legendary. Just so he has something to argue with. Of course he could as well decide to shuffle some clay instead, but that would only mean that council will most likely order me to find some other candidate and train him instead.

Once legendary, a guild master legendary potter could decide what to do and what to do with whatever he did
That means that he could grease some gears by presenting or promising to present some legendary statues of the senators to those senators, help design their manors, etc... or threaten to go on strike, requiring a long process of potter training to be done again. This will most likely boost his chances of influencing senatorial votes, and, for example, creating serf class.

That are some good suggestions. Although wouldn't a legendary potter be able to do all of that without being a guild master (of one member)?

Then purchasing some serfs and training them in whatever guild master wishes would be possible.

Other way around would be to play more socially and make friends and acquire members to the guild by befriending people and convincing them to join the guild or give you their mentionables for the training.

Do you mean purchasing as in hiring, or as in slaving? Not that it matters since I have nothing aside from a pair of socks.

I doubt I can convince any council member or soldier to join a Potters Guild. Although you are right, maybe I have to mingle a bit more 
I was thinking more along the lines of recruiting the potters who work in th factory to the guild and another player as Second-in-Command.

[TeleDwarf]

Why was the brick factory design approved though? It's way too big for a single legendary potter and his followers.

I voted for it because it is a beautiful building, even if a bit too centralized. 6 kilns are all we have right now, and it is better to have them inside for the reasons of safety and happiness. The laws require having residental areas near the jobs. Patio on the roof allows another place for idlers, breakers and eaters to gather, unloading busy bottlenecks near the longhall.

Other senators may have had other reasons.

That are some good suggestions. Although wouldn't a legendary potter be able to do all of that without being a guild master (of one member)?

he sure would. But if his ambition is to have a guild and legally monopolize pottery - then this is what he can do.

Do you mean purchasing as in hiring, or as in slaving? Not that it matters since I have nothing aside from a pair of socks.

I doubt I can convince any council member or soldier to join a Potters Guild. Although you are right, maybe I have to mingle a bit more 
I was thinking more along the lines of recruiting the potters who work in th factory to the guild and another player as Second-in-Command.

Well, serfs are property, but are not slaves. That is what it was in Europe. How it will be in GorgeAdmired is totally up to the players.

Hiring unmentionable NPCs is hard as I cannot think of a way to create a fair wage system. with PCs and mentionables it is easier, as you can actually talk to the player representing those and come to some agreement.

[neblime]

OOC
While all this discussion on the guild and guilds in general is great, I don't believe Elorf can initiate such a vote, the framework for guilds doesn't exist, and if you propose this to be a law, only council members can initiate such votes. 
I propose we consider this whole thing just as a discussion, as there isn't really a vote this can be considered to be, and once we can all agree a council member can propose a guild/law act

As for my part, I like the idea of guilds having influence, but i'm not sure how to manage how they earn it.  Perhaps a percentage of all members' influence, and members can use a fraction of the guild influence for certain actions?

[Cain12]

OOC
I'm planning to adopt, what would I do, since I want to adopt from a Non-PC, Non-Mentionable? Would I just do something like:

Cain Tongstell(24) adopts "insert" son/daughter of "insert" (0) and "insert" (0)

Cain (24-->?<24) "insert" (0-->?>0)

I assume as they have 0 I can skip their involvement, I have 24, times that by 0.4 is 9.6, so rounded down is 9, so I would have 15. Seems a tad steep, almost the same as the joining bonus and leaving cost of the council. Arg, so adopting loses me a lot regardless of how much I have, bloody damaging. I know that is the point, but it gets out of hand at later levels.

Btw even if I adopt a PC's kid I still lose the same, since most are 0-2s even Derps kid would cost me 9.

Perhaps make it so at certain influence levels we lose less, would remain equally damaging as the levels rose.

eg: at 0-19 it is 0.4, 20-39 is 0.3, 40 onward is 0.2. Would still hurt, but instead of a 40 losing 16 or a 30 losing 12 it would be 40 loses 8 and 30 loses 9. Still hurts to adopt a 0 but a bit better.

I mean if we leave it the way it is, a 60 would lose 24, more than a third, crazy when losing 12 would be enough that anyone would be careful about adoptions.

Edit:Then again that would affect the adopted as well, would their gains remain 40%, or 20%? The kid of a 60 only gaining 12 would be too low.

[neblime]

OOC
absolutely you can skip NPC involvement, as long as they arent under the wing of another PC, adopting a peasant is no small thing, and demeans your family alot in the eyes of the higher-ups.  Also consider the fact that if they have no influence they haven't done anything notable, and grabbing random people to be your adopted children isnt exactly a popular thing to do.

[Cain12]

OOC
absolutely you can skip NPC involvement, as long as they arent under the wing of another PC, adopting a peasant is no small thing, and demeans your family alot in the eyes of the higher-ups.  Also consider the fact that if they have no influence they haven't done anything notable, and grabbing random people to be your adopted children isnt exactly a popular thing to do.

So they would be the same as 0s as far as influence is concerned. Not really random, and considering how low my influence is and how child wise, I have no choice but to adopt a 0, there are only 4 people of notable influence.
 
Anyway, just saying while 9 is large but somewhat acceptable 24 (60) is far too much.

Adoption should not be that expensive, even if it is to punish the player, is it their fault there are few players to adopt from and they are influence of 0-2? Do I have a responsibility to raise them in the peoples eyes just to take their kid? Is that not worse?

Will start adoption when I get back.

[neblime]

OOC
well maybe we need a maximum of  +/- 10 or sometihng but i still think its appropriate to lose a lot if you demean your family by inviting peasants into it, and also consider the gain of having an heir, or otherwise family of mentionables, I don't think that should be easy to get if you can't naturally do it.