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[mscottveach]

I have a feeling this has been discussed somewhere so this thread might just be someone pointing me in the right direction. I searched without much luck.

But I'm curious if there's ever been any detailed discussion as to what makes DF succeeds. I don't mean from the perspective of playing the game -- I mean that's obviously been discussed a lot and anyone who plays the game could talk about why it works for them...

...I'm asking more from the perspective of a designer or a coder or even a play tester. Or maybe I'm asking "How did they pull off creating a simulator with such deepness?"

Did they just get incredibly lucky?

Or did they have a unique approach to the design/implementation that helped create the depth?

I've played a lot of the clones and none of them quite capture lightning in a bottle like DF does; does anyone have
any theories as to why?

[Manveru Taurënér]

Well, as far as I know there's never really been any single person doing what Toady is doing as far as game creation is concerned. It's sort of like the story of Tolkien, dedicating ones whole life to one project and perfecting it. Of course Toady has only been at it for 10 years, so we won't quite know for another 20 years at least (according to his own estimates).

[Monk321654]

If I were to guess?

It's not just the game (Although the game is fantastic), it's the community surrounding it.
Such a dedicated group of mentally unbalanced individuals, staying with Toady and Zach and their creation through thick and thin, through updates and slow development.
This group cultivates an entire culture around the game. Science experiments, research, Megaprojects, the community is just as involved with the game as its creators.
Along with the above points, we also have very open ended modding, so even if the base game gets a bit stale, you can still have something to entertain you until the next update.

Like I said, just a guess.

[Footkerchief]

If you haven't already read them, these interviews/articles give a lot of insight into their process:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131954/interview_the_making_of_dwarf_.php?print=1
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195148/dwarf_fortress_in_2013.php?print=1
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of-dwarf-fortress.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://www.hastac.org/blogs/elijahmeeks/procedural-humanities-interview-tarn-adams-creator-dwarf-fortress
http://nukezilla.com/2010/04/06/losing-is-fun-an-interview-with-dwarf-fortress-developer-tarn-adams/

[WarRoot]

It seems to me that in most games devs are pretty careful about the time it takes to implement a feature and its gameplay value, so they chop off bits here and there if they can speed up implementation while keeping most of the gameplay value.
Now the B12 development process is as I see it,  trying to bring out as much out of a feature as possible, and not caring about the time it takes.

So I think what you are seeing is that attention to detail adds up in then end.

[Mesa]

It seems to me that in most games devs are pretty careful about the time it takes to implement a feature and its gameplay value, so they chop off bits here and there if they can speed up implementation while keeping most of the gameplay value.
Now the B12 development process is as I see it,  trying to bring out as much out of a feature as possible, and not caring about the time it takes.

So I think what you are seeing is that attention to detail adds up in then end.

Case in point: the upcoming version has been delayed by 9 months (since March 2013).

[Armok]

The secret sauce is called Toady One, it is what happens if you take a genius, focus it like a laser at a single point, and keep it there singlemindedly for a decade without distraction. Anyone read "A Deepness in the Sky"?


There are two kinds of magic, the arcane, and the sacrifice. This is the later.

[Mr. Palau]

Foot Kerchief I just got to say that I googled Juffo-Wup because of your avatar, and am now busy reading the entire star child wiki.

[Footkerchief]

Excellent.  It's a good game, and freeware.

[askovdk]

In the foreword to the printed DF guide Toady says that they started writing the games for themselves to play, and I believe a large part of the ’secret’ is there.

If you want to be surprised by your own game, then there must be a random element, but if it’s only a small part, then you will still know all possible combinations and not be surprised. You can then add more randomness, but may then end with a mess on nonsense.
Toady’s impressive and ambitious work is instead to deconstruct a ‘normal’ adventure / builder game into its core components, and then create an engine that can put them together in a sensible way, so even he is delighted when being surprised by hippos in the sewers.

[mscottveach]

Thanks for the replies. Especially for those articles. They really gave me the insight that I
was looking for; I was shocked to see how much detail has been put into their simulation
sub-systems. I had no idea they were doing things like simulating tissue systems, and the
physics of weapon strikes.

I think @WarRoot nails it when he says that it's the culmative effect of attention to detail.

One sort of follow-up question: is there anywhere that I can find more information about
how they've modeled some of the sub-systems? For example, I'm intrigued by the off-handed
mention of modelling the physics of weapon strikes in one of those interviews. But of course
depending on how detailed the simulation is that might be nothing more than some heuristics
about when a weapon needs to be repaired all the way to a moment-by-moment simulation
of strike, block and parry of a fight.

Is that kind of information available anywhere? Either for this particular sub-system or for any
of them?

[thvaz]

If I were to guess?

It's not just the game (Although the game is fantastic), it's the community surrounding it.
Such a dedicated group of mentally unbalanced individuals, staying with Toady and Zach and their creation through thick and thin, through updates and slow development.
This group cultivates an entire culture around the game. Science experiments, research, Megaprojects, the community is just as involved with the game as its creators.
Along with the above points, we also have very open ended modding, so even if the base game gets a bit stale, you can still have something to entertain you until the next update.

Like I said, just a guess.

The community created the game, or the game created the community? Answer this question and you will know if the community is the "secret sauce" of DF.

[Footkerchief]

One sort of follow-up question: is there anywhere that I can find more information about
how they've modeled some of the sub-systems? For example, I'm intrigued by the off-handed
mention of modelling the physics of weapon strikes in one of those interviews. But of course
depending on how detailed the simulation is that might be nothing more than some heuristics
about when a weapon needs to be repaired all the way to a moment-by-moment simulation
of strike, block and parry of a fight.

Is that kind of information available anywhere? Either for this particular sub-system or for any
of them?

Toady's discussed it a lot, but it's hard to find all the information in one place.  The best summary I could find was a bunch of quotes I previously compiled:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=30026.msg1007133;topicseen#msg1007133

The weapon swing velocity comes from a lot of factors -- creature strength, weapon weight, velocity multiplier of the particular attack.  There are probably other factors I'm forgetting.  When an attack hits, it compares the material properties of the weapon and target tissue/material to determine whether the attack penetrates and/or transmits force to lower tissues. 

The upcoming version has significant changes.  If you're running toward the target, that counts toward your swing velocity, and actions occur over a span of time (allowing reactions etc) instead of taking instantaneous effect.

You might find it interesting to look through these files in your DF folder:
raw/objects/item_weapon.txt
raw/objects/tissue_template_default.txt

[Steelconfused]

It seems to me that in most games devs are pretty careful about the time it takes to implement a feature and its gameplay value, so they chop off bits here and there if they can speed up implementation while keeping most of the gameplay value.

As a newb, who has played some similar (but more pretty games) before, I think this and what Sprit of Rock wrote nail down the attraction of DF:

There is simply a huge mass of interacting systems. More than what I learned to use until now. Any number of stuff which can happen. Haven't seen much of it, because of ... well ... new.

Most designers think a lot of how much effort a new feature is, and if it is interesting enough to be worth this effort. Resulting in simpler systems - however, once I learn what the systems are, the attraction is gone. (Just a bit more finetuning to beat 30 goblins instead of 25? What is the point?) In DF an oversight with any system may cause a ripple effect, spreading down to the dreaded tantrum spiral or whatever. Or a beast for which you have not the right defenses, as you were geared to kill goblins and kobolds.

Even when not actually using or fighting against or whatever the additional systems, just knowing there is so much more to be explored, so many different ways to overcome challenge (or the fortress going down in madness) makes the game more interesting than any other I know.

[hermes]

Anyway, there's my 2coppers

Nice coppers!  Well said, I totally agree.  Basically the whole thing is possible because of Tarn and Zack's (zach?) Threetoe's vision.  Would be donating again right now if Paypal wasn't making me jump through hoops.  But jump I will.