Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Walkaboutout]

(Disclaimer: This thread turns out to be more about the behavior of the [DEEP_SPECIAL] tag in the raws, rather than a bars Vs. wafers usage thread. My initial thinking that the problem was related to bars and wafers was incorrect. Just FYI for those reading)

So. Had an idea to add a couple of metals to my game. Just a personal mod, and small. The original intent was to make Candy heavier, add Mithril in as a direct replacement for the original Candy, then add an alloy of the two. Candy and Mithril are both treated as original Candy, in that they're wafers, can be used to make clothing, etc. They're also both treated as Deep Specials, so they spawn up on maps like original Candy does, way down deep, in spires.

I figured the alloy, which requires one wafer of each, one steel bar (for lack of a better idea at the moment), and a flux boulder, should itself be a bar when made, rather than a wafer. That was where I ran into an issue.

I guess civs just don't make or do anything with wafers, but if you have something that is a bar, even an alloy of the otherwise never produced Candy and new Mithril wafers, the civs will still produce it at the Mountain Homes. It caught me off guard I guess.

Example: The trading caravan never, ever, makes or brings Candy items, or Candy wafers, or Raw Candy (or Mithril too, in this case). That's normal. They just don't seem make them, bring them to you to trade, etc. Even though they have the permitted reaction, it's only the player that ever does that.

However, add in a reaction to use the above materials and make an alloy BAR as the result (no raw material mineral of it that spawns of course since it's an alloy), and apparently the Mountain Homes just go nuts. I guess the solution is to simply make the alloy a wafer also, I just thought it more appropriate to make it a bar. I was also going to make a bar out of Candy, since it was becoming heavier in my mod, but then I assume I'd end up with the same problem.

I'd start seeing migrant hunters show up with Candy crossbows, just as they did with my new alloy, and the caravan bringing a ton of crafts, weapons, or anything that could be made of metal, made from the alloy and the new bar type Candy.

So, I guess the whole point of this post is to ask if there's any way to control that? I assume not. I just had figured since the Mountain Homes NEVER seem to make their own Candy, they would never have the reagents to make the alloy. Obviously the way the game abstracts the Mountain Homes out makes this untrue however, sigh. I wanted the alloy (and altered Candy bars), to be a rare thing of course, but obviously that wasn't the result.

[BlackFlyme]

I thought that the reason that stuff like Candy wasn't used by the Mountain Homes was because it was [DEEP_SPECIAL]

Anything with [DEEP_SPECIAL] [DEEP_SURFACE] or [SPECIAL] isn't supposed to be used by any civs during world-gen.

Does your new material have any of these tokens?

E: There's also the fact that reactions will grant a civilization access to the product, even if they cannot access the necessary reagents. This is why the dwarvern civ is always able to access steel, even if they don't have any iron or flux.

[Walkaboutout]

I didn't realize that the reaction granted access, period. I figured it was abstracted out such that, if no sites for that civ had a particular material in their area of influence, then it would go unused. Of course, that's a moot point here, since Candy, and now my Mithril, are basically going to be at every site, deep down enough.

Now, that said, I didn't realize those three tags prevented use during world-gen. That may be all I need. Though, for a material that is only a makeable alloy of two existing [DEEP_SPECIAL] tagged mineral/metals that appear in the ground, I wonder which tag to use? I assume just the same [DEEP_SPECIAL] on the metal itself, in the inorganic_metal raw file. The only time it would spawn as a mineable mineral in the ground is if I were to add it to inorganic_mineral, with the Raw Mithril, and Raw Candy, right?

I guess, assuming my conclusion is correct, that makes perfect sense. I was not making the connection between the metal and the mineral raw files in this case. For some reason I was thinking that tag would cause it to spawn, but duh, that's only going to apply if I have a mineral entry, which of course I don't because it's an alloy. All fairly simple, and a silly oversight on my part I guess, haha. Just glad I can have my cake and eat it too in this case. Thanks much BlackFlyme for the contribution. Think this will solve my issue nicely!

[BlackFlyme]

I think all you have to do is give it [SPECIAL]

[DEEP_SPECIAL] makes it behave just like Candy spires, and [DEEP_SURFACE] makes it function as the material that makes up the surface of the HFS.

I haven't made any of these three special material types before, I'm just going off what is on the wiki, but it should work.

[Walkaboutout]

You were entirely right Black. I've added [DEEP_SPECIAL] to the alloy entry in the metals raw, and that seems to have done the trick. One caravan from the dorfs showed up, and had no alloy with it at all. Because it's a metals entry, and not a minerals entry, I'm pretty sure I won't have an issue with it appearing as generated mineable materials, like the Raw Candy and Raw Mithril mineral entries. That said, I'll do more testing. More than just one caravan, just to be sure, and of course digging down deep to ensure that the only thing that spawned down there was what I expect. For now I'll probably get some rest, but I'll report back here once I've confirmed all is working properly (and made sure I can still make the alloy at a smelter, etc.)

[Putnam]

Yeah, it'll show up as a mineable material.

[Walkaboutout]

I only had like 5 minutes this morning before going to work to dig into the lava sea, and scout around for pillars (I know, this would be far more simple if I'd just use DFHack).

So far, I only saw Candy and Mithril, as I'd expect. I think [DEEP_SPECIAL] on the alloy's entry in the inorganic_metals raw will work as expected. I don't think it will spawn, since there's no definition for the alloy in any way in the inorganic_minerals raw. Otherwise, wouldn't we see both Raw Candy spires, as WELL as actual Candy spires that would like....be the refined metal?

I think with no inorganic_minerals definitions at all for the alloy, it won't appear anywhere except as a smelter reaction, when you create the stuff from the appropriate ingredients. [DEEP_SPECIAL] seems to have the effect that Black suggested, when placed on a metal that only appears in the inorganic_metals raw. That is, among other possibilities that I might not be aware of, it seems to prevent the civ with access to the reaction for the metal, from actually making or utilizing that metal during world-gen.

I'll keep searching when I get home from work. Or rather I'll just load up DFhack and see if it appeared anywhere. Much quicker to do, haha.

[Quietust]

What is this "Candy" material?

[Walkaboutout]

What is this "Candy" material?

I just mean the typical metal that we all avoid mentioning by name, for fear of spoilers. Probably not nearly so necessary here in the modding section, but hey, better safe than sorry. As to why I capitalize it, there's no reason, I'm just being retarded I guess.

[Quietust]

I don't recall that Adamantine is still considered a spoiler, only the HFS ("Hidden Fun Stuff", in Toady's own words) contained within it.

[Putnam]

Yeah, Adamantine shows up in every stockpile list, so it's difficult to keep secret.

[Walkaboutout]

So I got home, prospected and revealed the whole map, and waited for another caravan. Sure enough, no alloy with the caravan again, and no instances of the alloy anywhere on the map. Only Adamantine and Mithril spires in the lower levels, and of course HFS and all. It seems [DEEP_SPECIAL], applied to an inorganic_metal only entry, does indeed prevent the civs with the reaction for it from making or utilizing it during world-gen. It also does not create any anomolies of it appearing in pillars deep down (although I'm sure it would appear there if there were some corresponding entry in the inorganic_stone_minerals raw file). According to my limited tests here, at least.

[Putnam]

[SPECIAL] would get the same results without any chance of anomaly.

[Walkaboutout]

[SPECIAL] would get the same results without any chance of anomaly.

Very cool. I'll use that instead, just for simplicity's sake, and to ensure no wierdness. Thanks all

[IndigoFenix]

If you really want to keep a material 'secret', you can define it in a nonexistent creature or plant instead, and call this creature or plant material in the reaction.  This should prevent it from being used by forgotten beasts and god-given slabs as well (which normally can take any INORGANIC material, even the SPECIAL ones), as well as keeping it from showing up in most lists.  However, sometimes it won't be stockpiled correctly, depending on the item made from it, and you won't be able to work with it in a forge, so I guess it's not what you're looking for.  Works well for vaporizing stones though.