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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 366809 times)

Reelya

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1155 on: October 13, 2015, 10:56:26 pm »

If I say it enough it will be adressed

^ This is a weird belief unless you're a rampant narcissist. So if you keep blathering on then they'll do another moon mission? wtf man? Say it all you want, nobody will listen unless you're actually somebody known for something relevant.

Well we can go back to the moon to collect more moon rocks for analysis. Other than that it's a big waste of money. Even if we got the "collect resources from the moon" route, then we're better off waiting until we have better tech. Right now, a moon colony would be a net drain on resources even with extraction going on. Future tech will clearly be more efficient for the launch, less resources used on the moon and more efficient resource extraction.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 11:05:38 pm by Reelya »
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That Wolf

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1156 on: October 13, 2015, 11:05:36 pm »

I should have cleared it up a little, vague I guess.
The frozen continent antartica.
There is a water cycle on the moon else we wouldnt have found any, Right? Even if its becoming gaseous and evaporating away it must have water to continue this 'cycle'

So they shouldnt do another moon mission?
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Reelya

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1157 on: October 13, 2015, 11:06:36 pm »

It'd be a complete waste of money and resources. You'd find some ice underground from billions of years ago. The money would be better spent studying Antarctica some more.

Actually the discussion isn't what they should be doing, but what programs you want them to abolish to make way for your useless moon landing? Another Apollo program would cost at least $100 billion.

Considering that about $150 billion has been spent on the International Space Station, it's clear that any sustained moon presence would cost vastly in excess of this, easily 4-5 times the cost of the ISS. So you'd be looking at anything up to $1 trillion dollars for a moon program and a moon base. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is just a ball-park guess and the true cost is much more.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 11:13:44 pm by Reelya »
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1158 on: October 13, 2015, 11:13:20 pm »

I should have cleared it up a little, vague I guess.
The frozen continent antartica.
There is a water cycle on the moon else we wouldnt have found any, Right? Even if its becoming gaseous and evaporating away it must have water to continue this 'cycle'

No. Any water on the moon is subterranean. We don't know the exact properties of it yet, but it does not come to the surface unless an impact opens the surface. And then the water evaporates and gets blown off of the moon. We accidentally found it when a prob landed harder than intended. (crashed)
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"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1159 on: October 14, 2015, 05:18:41 am »

Im not an intense tinfoiler but I... we all know the governments lie to the people they think they control, from affairs, murder and policies being slipped through.
So to say we cant go back to the moon because of budget is a lie, bacterial life exsits in the frozen continent and the moon has water cycles.
Bacterial cannot be killed at kelvin, all it needs to survive in space is a casing to protect from space rads and it can hibernate.

We have the tech to travel to it, Im positive people are willing to be adventurers and risk life for discovery.
So why dont we go back there! Mars is a suicidal goal until we use non liquid explosive fuels.
If I say it enough it will be adressed
Perhaps you should be an intense tinfoiler.  The pro-tinfoiler mind-wave broadcasts are getting through your existing headgear and making you believe strange things.
Governments lie withhold truths for the sake of their current administration aims, but the bigger the truth, and the more people needed to withhold the truth and it will leak.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For the budget, well, it's no longer the game of one-upmanship against The Big Enemy (now various Big Enemies are doing various things, but aside for Jade Rabbit having belatedly entered the contest for a third-place on the podium there's no part of the game that involves the Moon).  It now has to make full and commercial sense, under reasonable due diligence, not just being trumped by ideological fervour with an incidental side-effect in that (by one famous quote, both overcut and undercut by different analyses) every dollar spent on Apollo resulted in eight dollars of economic benefit.

Bacteria exists in Antarctica (I assume you're saying... FAKEEDIT: yes you are) because it exists on Earth.  Also, water exists in all three standard states (to a greater or lesser degree) in the Antarctic in a cycle, albeit a sluggish one.  On the Moon, so far we only know about it being overwhelmingly Solid-(sublimes)->Gas.  Which is not a cycle.  Certainly not of any use to life-as-we-know-it.  Any evidence to the contrary would be far beyond the Apollo program's tentative scrapings.  (Did they even get to see ice, at their non-polar latitudes, and limited penetration of the lunar regolith?  I don't think they did.)

"Bacterial cannot be killed at kelvin".  You mean "zero-degrees kelvin"?  Yes/no, depending on other conditions.  And of course it's not zero-degrees, anyway, remember; still far from optimal in other regards, though.  But they have to be there, in a viable form, to be killed (or not).  So far there's very little evidence that interplanetary microbes-on-a-meteorite life would satisfy viability upon landing on another body, and it's overwhelmingly agreed that environments other than the Moon are required for non-panspermic life generation.  Basic molecules might be generated in gas clouds, complex ones maybe in comets, full blown cells (or some other solution to the problem of encapsulating life-supporting sets of chemical processing plants in a coherent mass) need something a bit more Earthlike (to our current knowledge), which is why recent discoveries of flowing liquid water (reasonably current) and lakes (historic) are interesting.

I'd personally put Pluto (with its seeming active geology and tentative atmosphere - being indicative of subplutonian activity rather than of a viable surface environment, that is) at a higher chance of harbouring some homegrown life-like 'cells' than the Moon, albeit based upon casual and uneducated philosophising regarding New Horizon's survey data.

If 'life' is on the Moon, then a) We put it there; or, b) It got there from somewhere else.  In either case, it's likely in exteme hibernation/practically dead.  Mostly the latter.  And, in either case, sparse enough to be discounted as smeers of sub-trace organic molecules.

There's the tech, yes (but we'd need to build/rebuild some infrastructure) and my hope is that there are willing adventurers (there certainly seem to be, those who are signing up for the one-way Mars mission, albeit that some might only consider it just 'a bit of fun' that they'll never need to commit to, given how far off the possibility of it going will be).

To 'discover life', however you'd be a fool to send people, in the first instance!  They'd contaminate and invalidate whatever they went to look at.  We're not even entirely sure about the sterility of our robotic probes, currently (if/when we send something to observe the 'flowing water on Mars', it's going to have to be the most sterile thing we've ever produced.

And what's this with "non liquid explosive fuels"?  Solid boosters?  Not really suitable except for expendable (not turn-on-and-offable) thrust.  Or are you talking about gasses?  Which we tend to use already, albeit often cooled to liquid in a cryogenic manner.  Maybe you mean "non-(liquid explosive fuels)", i.e. the likes of an ion-drive.  Not ideal.  Too developmental, longer transit times (and thus supplies, for manned-missions) and currently not suitable for the high delta-V parts of the mission.

Manned missions have their own issues with 'suicide' (see the one-way Mission To Mars plan, mentioned above), without dwelling on the particularities of the propellant.

And if I say "give me a Ferrari" enough, maybe that'll be addressed.  It would be cheaper, and easier to do, too!
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LordBaal

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1160 on: October 14, 2015, 08:49:46 am »

A few things...
I sense that, unless the microbiology found is radically different to anything on earth, people will keep claiming that is cross contamination of some sorts. That's it, I think that until we find multicellular (read animal and/or plants equivalents) people will keep debating about the existence of alien life.

As for a moon colony, the private sector has the ball now, or at least is getting there on the space technology. Thing is the expenses of getting materials to orbit is a great deal. For a moon base, even one employing local materials the initial payload (even if its all robotic, something which would be ideal) would be something of an order of magnitude like it has never seen before.

Lunar vacations sounds something really cool, for starters. However we are still on diapers and the civilian/commercial sector lacks the incentive to go to the moon, the same goes to the industrial/military/government sector. Of course finding bacterial life there would be amazing and might jumpstart some more exploration but as I say above even if we do find it there people will yank about how it's contamination or something else.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

redwallzyl

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1161 on: October 14, 2015, 03:20:12 pm »

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Starver

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TheDarkStar

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Don't die; it's bad for your health!

it happened it happened it happen im so hyped to actually get attacked now

monkey

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tryrar

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1165 on: October 15, 2015, 12:29:55 am »

More likely a comet swarm, but it does fire up the imagination doesn't it?
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1166 on: October 15, 2015, 02:38:28 am »

A Dyson sphere ?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2015/10/14/weird_star_strange_dips_in_brightness_are_a_bit_baffling.html
More monoliths!

Maybe eeeevil monoliths...  or, in that star system, the ascendant species failed some final test...

"My god, it's full of.... Aaaaaaarrrgggggh!!!!!"

(BTW, it's likely to be "RIP <1665-2015"...)

edit: typoed as "1915"...  Child of the 20th century, as I am... though still not that old.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:27:29 am by Starver »
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Morrigi

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1167 on: October 15, 2015, 04:49:27 am »

More likely a comet swarm, but it does fire up the imagination doesn't it?
It'd have to be one hell of a comet swarm. One does not simply block 22% of the light emitted by a star with comets, even periodically.
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1168 on: October 15, 2015, 07:17:37 am »

More likely a comet swarm, but it does fire up the imagination doesn't it?
It'd have to be one hell of a comet swarm. One does not simply block 22% of the light emitted by a star with comets, even periodically.
Could resonance from another large body (or set of already-resonant bodies, large in mass but obviously themselves small in cross-section) corral an asteroid belt/oort cloud into a relatively small (but larger than a planet) area/solid angle around the star, by nudging tidal forces?

If so, eventually I'd fully expect the large coralled group to coalesce into a single smaller body under its own gravitational influence, but there might well be a period of time whereby there's such a hypothetical half-diffuse cloud.

Alternately, the reverse.  We're observing a shattered, but previously large, planet (perhaps a recent super-Earth/super-Theia impact?), before its dispersing debris actually spread out to form a thinner but more consistent belt/cloud around its star.

(Top-of-the-head ideas.  If I had an envelope at hand, to calculate on the back of, I'd probably fairly quickly realise the mass/volume numbers just wouldn't add up.)
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MrWiggles

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1169 on: October 15, 2015, 07:27:34 am »

The lack of infrared suggest there isn't sort of debris field, such as oort cloud being clumpy by its neighbor, or comets or a cataslysm event, like a planetary collision.
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