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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 289969 times)

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #990 on: August 11, 2015, 04:31:46 pm »

So just wondering again, if the partials repel each other because they carry the same charge could you equip a gigantic miles long ship with one of these cannons and use it as a sort of EMP shot gun taking down enemy fighters (smaller less armored but more maneuverable craft) but hardly affecting the well shielded large ships?

I would suppose you would wait from a distance till most of the enemy's fighters are headed your way then fire this ion cannon with it's wide hitting but weak blast to take out a sizable chunk of fighters then use larger weapons, perhaps MACs (mass acceleration cannons) to take down the larger ships.
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i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #991 on: August 11, 2015, 05:48:12 pm »

Honestly talking about ship-to-ship weapons at all is a little silly, because space is huge. Here's a bit of an example. Imagine that we had a spaceship as large as New York City, and as tall as the empire state building (so that's around 340 square miles in width and ~.27 miles in height). Now, imagine all the empty space in a ring (not a sphere!) delineated by the surface of the Earth and the closest side of the Moon. You can fit over 1 billion of those spaceships, and barely use up 50% of that empty space!

But lets go even bigger. Imagine that you had a spaceship the size of the Earth. Now lets look at the ring traced out by Mars's orbit on the outside, Earth's on the inside, and is 1 Earth in height (so inner radius of 1 Earth orbit, outer of 1 Mars orbit, and 1 Earth diameter in height). You could fit 625 million Earth-sized spaceships into that ring, and still have an entire Earth's radius between each of them.

The distance from Earth to Neptune? It's 19.3 times as far as from the Earth to Mars, meaning we could fit approximately 371 times as many Earth-sized spaceships in the ring between here and there, so over 231 billion while still having the space to fit an entire extra Earth between each spaceship.

And all those estimates? That's just using 2 dimensions in space. You want to go up to 3 dimensions? Take whatever the number is and multiply it by it's own square root (which puts the Earth to Neptune estimate at around 112 quadrillion).

And if those numbers are a little difficult to grasp, let's just imagine a rough metaphor. Imagine that I drop you in a random point somewhere on the surface of the Earth. Now imagine that I drop your friend somewhere else on the surface of the Earth. I'm going to give you both magic jet planes with unlimited fuel. What do you think is the chance that you will ever see each other again before you die of old age? That's approximately equal to the sphere of the moon, which we've shown is smaller than most of the others by several orders of magnitude. The simple takeaway is that if someone doesn't want them to find you, and they have enough spare fuel to take less efficient paths, then you aren't going to see them in space, regardless of how much you are looking. Your first sign of an attacking army or hostile ship is probably going to be when it comes in for a landing on your planet, not when it enters the solar system. :P
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #992 on: August 11, 2015, 06:21:49 pm »

-snip-

Sure, space is big, but there's only a few points where people are actually going to be. Orbits, lagrange points, and going in-between them.

With the amount of telescopes and monitoring devices any space-war-capable civilisation will have I'm sure they have a chance to spot enemies.

While, yes, space combat is a little silly, it can made sufficiently sensible enough it's not completely out of bounds. After all, armed space stations have already existed in the past (though that was to prevent boarders).

-snip-

Your shotgun weapon doesn't seem likely, no. The weapon seems to be, well, a beam, rather than a "shotgun", so that wouldn't work. Even if it was, it's a huge amount of space and energy that would probably be much more effectively used by lasers and missiles. Lasers are king in space battles, because they travel at c when even your coilgun shots do not.

It depends, really, how hard you want your sci-fi to be. Towards the harder scale, it becomes logical to point out there's very little point to fighters in space. A fighter's role is to act as a carrying platform for munitions - something needless in space, what with the infinite range. A fighter will by necessity have smaller weaponry than a larger ship, so the thicker armour on a larger ship may be enough to foil it. The harder the sci-fi you get, the less space combat there is, and the mroe is starts looking like submarine combat. But with lasers.
Finally, you get the question why space-faring civilisations would be at war anyway, as it would not be over resources or living space. Ideology, maybe.

Or go soft sci-fi, have your fighters and your EMP cannon, and don't worry about it.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #993 on: August 11, 2015, 06:38:59 pm »

Wouldn't the most effective space weapon just be a good missile?
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #994 on: August 11, 2015, 07:10:50 pm »

Wouldn't the most effective space weapon just be a good missile?
Not necessarily. A missile will have a long distance to travel and a very small radius in which it is effective. It's vulnerable to point defence, such as lasers. It can be dodged - if it misses the first pass, it's unlikely to have enough full left to turn back round. As it's slower than light, you'll have the ability to see it coming and shoot it down, probably again with lasers. Missiles can be spoofed with chaff or electronic warfare.

Lasers do have their downsides, of course, but the have the most advantages to me.


Wouldn't the most effective space weapon just be a good missile?
Railguns would probably be better. They could accelerate to greater speeds so that they're harder to detect in time, and you don't need to carry explosive ammunition/fuel with you. Just need electricity.
Railgusn have the weakness that they have no correction ability for a target moving out of your firing prediction. Lasers are much faster, so it's harder to dodge; missiles can correct their aim on the go; but railguns have neither the speed of a laser or the self-aiming ability of a missile.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #995 on: August 11, 2015, 07:25:41 pm »

@Gilgamesh- well what is it then? Earlier I was told that an ion pulse would spread itself out because of the charge all being the same and now your telling me it's a beam? Wouldn't a beam not fit that whole spreading itself out effect?
Also this weapon would be used at a greater distance and a crap load of energy put into it so basicaly firing (by the time it gets to the target anyway not straight out the barrel) a wall of charged particles (ya going a but soft scifi on this) that would knock out the incoming fighters electronics but not past the larger ships shielding. And with the why are they at war? Same reasons we would have war.
Religion, resources (Dune anyone? Maybe there is a very rare resource that while not entirely needed (not referencing dune right now) is highly desirable. Civilizations would have war over this resource), politics, civil war (I suppose this might fit with politics but eh), racism towards the other space fairing civs, etc.

@i2amroy- Most of the combat in this game will be taking place near (like as close as the moon is to earth near) planets. The shotgun/ion beam whatever it is might also be used against planets, think like a mobile solar flare generator. You could knock out an entire planet in a couple shots or at least take out the tech in larger/more populated areas.

Edit: also who's to say you can't fit on equipment to adjust a projectiles flight that is fired from a rail gun? After all it's not traveling a few hundred feet, not a couple miles, maybe not even a hundred miles but more there is enough distance for adjustment. Also choosing railguns over lasers because they have the weight to punch through shielding and possibly smaller than a laser and cheaper.

After all wouldn't it be easier to generate a shield that deflected lasers or absorbed their energy than it would be to make something that deflected multiple heavy rods. (I say multiple because it would be roughly the same energy to fire a couple of rods as it would be to fire a sustained energy beam of similar strength)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 07:33:47 pm by Cryxis, Prince of Doom »
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Culise

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #996 on: August 11, 2015, 07:38:49 pm »

Wouldn't the most effective space weapon just be a good missile?
Basically it boils down to what kind of technology is available.  If missiles (and by extension kinetic projectiles in general) can be easily intercepted or otherwise prevented from reaching their target by point defense systems, then it's probable that direct-fire lightspeed or near-c weapons will take on a more direct role.  If such projectiles cannot be easily stopped at all, by maneuver or otherwise, kinetic weapons might well be cheaper and thus more plentiful than missiles.  Generally, however, the probable engagement distances of fractional light-seconds once you're outside of very low orbits (and hence no longer have any sort of "horizon" to worry about) will make low-velocity kinetics ("low" being relative to the speed of light) much less useful than either lasers (which have the same velocity as your detection systems) or missiles (which can make course corrections to counteract enemy maneuvers or simple inaccuracies).  Again, though, technology - if you can't build lasers capable of defeating enemy armor in terms of similar mass-budgets at such distances or the tyranny of the rocket equation precludes missiles both operating and maneuvering at that distance, such that engagement envelopes are measured in tens, hundred, or thousands of kilometers, then kinetic weapons start to look more attractive. 

As for detection strategy, well, i2amroy notes, space is indeed quite large, and only a fraction of it is likely to be tapped.  That said, however, it is also extremely empty.  Thermal background radiation is around 3 Kelvin; by contrast to this, even a ship operating at 0 C is going to stand out like a torch.  Voyager 1, on the far side of the heliopause and broadcasting a radio signal of only 20 watts, can be picked up from scratch in less than a second, using modern technology alone.  On the Earth, the detection problem is complicated by a very dense (relatively speaking) local environment - if your stealth bomber has the radar profile of a sparrow, well, there are plenty of sparrows around - as well as the curvature of the Earth itself - a tiny bit of distance is all you need to put a planet between you and the target.  In space, there is no horizon to hide behind, and at significant distances, hiding behind, say, another planet is not going to get you to your destination, and it's only going to cover fractions of an arcsecond's worth of sky.  Any burn to accelerate, decelerate, or maneuver will be observable, and you can bet that unless your opponent's military high command has their heads so far up their rear they're seeing light from the far side (in which case, why are they even a threat?), they're going to be watching their skies for any hint of that sort of visible sign of attack.  In other words, yes space is empty, but don't imagine it like two people being set on random points on the Earth.  Imagine it like them being put down on a completely featureless plane, in the darkness, carrying omnidirectional floodlights.  If either of them turns on their light to get their bearings/find the other one, the other will know where they are immediately.  And again, that's two-dimensional rather than three.  The real-world detection problems you usually hear are two-fold: we're either looking for something that's cooled down to background levels (asteroids) or we're looking for something at distances of light-years (alien life).  Enemy military forces will qualify for neither, especially if they need to get to you in order to attack. 

That said, you can try to "beat" the signal, especially if it still travels at the speed of light.  If you have FTL drives but no FTL detection, you can embark on the Picard maneuver on a strategic scale.  If you have relativistic weapons and absolutely no moral compunctions, you can set up a relativistic weapons at a few light-days out, accelerate your projectiles to such a velocity that the light from your weapons will only reach them within some marginal time scale before the projectiles themselves do, then aim at whatever BDT they have to target, which will usually be the planet they're living on.  In terms of historical strategy parallels, it's the idea of "base control" taken up a notch to full-on "base denial" - it doesn't matter if you destroy their fleet or not, because if they have no place to refuel, rearm, repair, or resupply, they're a dead duck. 

EDIT: Three new replies...well, let's skim those and revise quick.

@Gilgamesh- well what is it then? Earlier I was told that an ion pulse would spread itself out because of the charge all being the same and now your telling me it's a beam? Wouldn't a beam not fit that whole spreading itself out effect?
Also this weapon would be used at a greater distance and a crap load of energy put into it so basicaly firing (by the time it gets to the target anyway not straight out the barrel) a wall of charged particles (ya going a but soft scifi on this) that would knock out the incoming fighters electronics but not past the larger ships shielding. And with the why are they at war? Same reasons we would have war.
Religion, resources (Dune anyone? Maybe there is a very rare resource that while not entirely needed (not referencing dune right now) is highly desirable. Civilizations would have war over this resource), politics, civil war (I suppose this might fit with politics but eh), racism towards the other space fairing civs, etc.

@i2amroy- Most of the combat in this game will be taking place near (like as close as the moon is to earth near) planets. The shotgun/ion beam whatever it is might also be used against planets, think like a mobile solar flare generator. You could knock out an entire planet in a couple shots or at least take out the tech in larger/more populated areas.

Edit: also who's to say you can't fit on equipment to adjust a projectiles flight that is fired from a rail gun? After all it's not traveling a few hundred feet, not a couple miles, maybe not even a hundred miles but more there is enough distance for adjustment. Also choosing railguns over lasers because they have the weight to punch through shielding and possibly smaller than a laser and cheaper.

After all wouldn't it be easier to generate a shield that deflected lasers or absorbed their energy than it would be to make something that deflected multiple heavy rods. (I say multiple because it would be roughly the same energy to fire a couple of rods as it would be to fire a sustained energy beam of similar strength)
Alright, now we're getting some details on the technology available.  Earth-Moon system means that most of the broad strokes apply, actually, you'd need to be in planetary orbit, and likely low planetary orbit, for the planet itself to change the game.  As for beam diffusion, your particle beam is going to lose power fast as it spreads out - you don't want it to spread out too much, not if you want it to hit its target(s) and actually do anything.  Your shields need to be orders of magnitude weaker between fighters and heavy ships to work in this manner.  As well, if it's so trivial to wipe out fighters, then the awkward question quickly arises of why fighters are even utilized.  You don't benefit from them from a volume analysis (acceleration is based on mass, but velocities are not restricted by cross-sectional area like they are on Earth) or range extension (on Earth, fighters are utilized to extend strike capabilities over the horizon or beyond gun range, which is less important when there is no horizon and no gravity or atmosphere to reduce gun ranges), you can't protect them, and if they get shot down before they ever get close to their targets, then the resources that went into their construction were effectively wasted. 

As for shielding against lasers versus kinetics, that depends on how your shield is designed (assuming you mean Star Trek/Wars shields and not, say, whipple shields).  It's very probably going to be very "soft" scientifically speaking, so you as the author could handwave it any way you like, but it depends on what kind of rule of thumb you use.  If your force field deals purely in blocking energy, and moreover that energy is energy, it's less likely to matter if it's electromagnetic or kinetic in nature.  If it deflects masses through some sort of gravitational effect with some sort of absolute threshold (for some arbitrary piece of handwavium), it may well be more effective on the massless photons than on mass weapons.  Star Trek shields, for example, are presumably highly effective against projectiles (very weak navigational shields suffice to protect against particles moving at relativistic or effectively-FTL velocities), and moderately effective against energy or missile-type weapons.  Dune shields by contrast have radical and highly unpredictable interactions with lasers and beam weapons, but allow slow-moving weapons to get through. 

Finally, if you utilize "equipment to adjust the projectile's flight" (say, some sort of reaction jet system on the projectile?), you're not simply firing a rail gun anymore.  You're firing a very simple missile. :P
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 08:05:21 pm by Culise »
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Bumber

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #997 on: August 11, 2015, 08:12:00 pm »

Railgusn have the weakness that they have no correction ability for a target moving out of your firing prediction. Lasers are much faster, so it's harder to dodge; missiles can correct their aim on the go; but railguns have neither the speed of a laser or the self-aiming ability of a missile.
Wouldn't lasers lose focus at a distance? There are bits of space dust everywhere stealing your laser's power, too. You might end up heating your ship more than your opponent's.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #998 on: August 11, 2015, 08:19:26 pm »

@Gilgamesh- well what is it then? Earlier I was told that an ion pulse would spread itself out because of the charge all being the same and now your telling me it's a beam? Wouldn't a beam not fit that whole spreading itself out effect?
Also this weapon would be used at a greater distance and a crap load of energy put into it so basicaly firing (by the time it gets to the target anyway not straight out the barrel) a wall of charged particles (ya going a but soft scifi on this) that would knock out the incoming fighters electronics but not past the larger ships shielding. And with the why are they at war? Same reasons we would have war.
Religion, resources (Dune anyone? Maybe there is a very rare resource that while not entirely needed (not referencing dune right now) is highly desirable. Civilizations would have war over this resource), politics, civil war (I suppose this might fit with politics but eh), racism towards the other space fairing civs, etc.

@i2amroy- Most of the combat in this game will be taking place near (like as close as the moon is to earth near) planets. The shotgun/ion beam whatever it is might also be used against planets, think like a mobile solar flare generator. You could knock out an entire planet in a couple shots or at least take out the tech in larger/more populated areas.

Edit: also who's to say you can't fit on equipment to adjust a projectiles flight that is fired from a rail gun? After all it's not traveling a few hundred feet, not a couple miles, maybe not even a hundred miles but more there is enough distance for adjustment. Also choosing railguns over lasers because they have the weight to punch through shielding and possibly smaller than a laser and cheaper.

After all wouldn't it be easier to generate a shield that deflected lasers or absorbed their energy than it would be to make something that deflected multiple heavy rods. (I say multiple because it would be roughly the same energy to fire a couple of rods as it would be to fire a sustained energy beam of similar strength)
Ok. To answer your points

1- It's gigla, not gilga.

2- Yes, it will spread out, but it's still going to be more beam- than wall shaped. The more is disperses, the weaker it'll be. If it was a wall shape, it'd be so weak it was useless. A particle beam can be neutralised by adding or subtracting electrons. If you can knock out the hardened electronics of spacecraft, you have easily irradiated the crew enough to kill them. 100+ grays to damage hardened electronics, 5 to kill a human.

3- Religion is a possibility. So is politics. But space has effectively infinite resources available. There is no reason to suspect a quasi-magical substance ala dune exists elsewhere but not here. Inifinte living space is available, in habits or other systems if interstellar colonisation is available.

4- I doubt any spaceship has the energy capability to produce solar-flare levels of energy. To compare, the casual-googled most powerful laser so far in existence was 150000J (1.5x10^5). A solar flare is around 60000000000000000000000000J (6 x10^25). And Earth is mostly protected by it's magnetic field. YOur spaceships can't come close, unless you're the sort of civilisation that can build Dyson Spheres. And by then you're probably beyond war.

5- Rail guns tend to have problems. You need to replace the rails every few shots due to erosion. They aren't recoilless - so you'll have to counter that, which costs propellant. A railgun projectile has a huge amount of current running through it while it is between the rails. If that doesn't detonate any propellant through the heat and current and ruin any electronics... well, there's also the problem that railgun projectiles are tiny. Not much room for guidance systems or propellants. They'll still be slower and thus less likely to hit, or damagable by point defence.

6 -  That's just [pretty much pure sci-fi. Make it up if you want, but there's no reason why it'd not work on kinetic energy as well. A magnetic field can protect against charged particles, which is why Earth still has an atmosphere and Mars doesn't.

Railgusn have the weakness that they have no correction ability for a target moving out of your firing prediction. Lasers are much faster, so it's harder to dodge; missiles can correct their aim on the go; but railguns have neither the speed of a laser or the self-aiming ability of a missile.
Wouldn't lasers lose focus at a distance? There are bits of space dust everywhere stealing your laser's power, too. You might end up heating your ship more than your opponent's.
Absolutely, they'll lose focus over distance subject to defraction. Lasers are also quite ineffecient, so you'll have a lot of problems with losing the heat once you've fired the laser. You could get around that with using some kind of heatsink, but then you're limited by the heat capacity of it. Radiators would be large but impossible to armour.
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i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #999 on: August 11, 2015, 08:23:41 pm »

Sure, space is big, but there's only a few points where people are actually going to be. Orbits, lagrange points, and going in-between them.
That's why I said "with enough spare fuel to take less efficient paths". :P

-snip-
Point, though that's obviously something that is actively transmitting in the radio band right at you, and not taking any real steps to avoid detection at all (in fact it's actively trying to get your attention). There's plenty of countermeasures an attacker could take that would make detecting them more difficult, such as any combinations of:
1) Only burning far away, and then "coasting" the rest of the distance.
2) Using vacuum insulation between an inner and outer hull, and then coating the outer hull with an extremely cold substance after any burns to reduce thermal profiles.
3) Approaching from the other side or next to a warmer thermal body, such as a planet, thus letting its heat signature drown out your own.
4) Approaching from the direction of a more active background area, such as along the milky way, thus lowering the difference between your own thermal output and theirs.
5) If you do have to do a burn that is close enough to be easily detected, launch a handful of decoys in different directions that are hotter but smaller, then have both you and the decoys "go dark" by cooling their outer hull. The end result would make it very difficult to tell which direction you went in.

To build off the black plane, I'd say it's more of a matter of two people in a black plane with a background that is constantly twinkling slightly, with a few very bright lights scattered about, and with lamps that are only really visible when they are "pushing" and the rest of the time are basically invisible; still possible to track someone down in, but much more difficult.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1000 on: August 11, 2015, 08:26:39 pm »


-snip-
Point, though that's obviously something that is actively transmitting in the radio band right at you, and not taking any real steps to avoid detection at all (in fact it's actively trying to get your attention). There's plenty of countermeasures an attacker could take that would make detecting them more difficult, such as any combinations of:
1) Only burning far away, and then "coasting" the rest of the distance.
2) Using vacuum insulation between an inner and outer hull, and then coating the outer hull with an extremely cold substance after any burns to reduce thermal profiles.
3) Approaching from the other side or next to a warmer thermal body, such as a planet, thus letting its heat signature drown out your own.
4) Approaching from the direction of a more active background area, such as along the milky way, thus lowering the difference between your own thermal output and theirs.
5) If you do have to do a burn that is close enough to be easily detected, launch a handful of decoys in different directions that are hotter but smaller, then have both you and the decoys "go dark" by cooling their outer hull. The end result would make it very difficult to tell which direction you went in.

To build off the black plane, I'd say it's more of a matter of two people in a black plane with a background that is constantly twinkling slightly, with a few very bright lights scattered about, and with lamps that are only really visible when they are "pushing" and the rest of the time are basically invisible; still possible to track someone down in, but much more difficult.
You've got to burn to slow down, though, and that's difficult to hide when approaching a target. It is pointed at them, after all.
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1001 on: August 11, 2015, 08:36:51 pm »

Its impossible for any naturally occurring materiel resource to be scarce (Yes, Spice is naturally occurring), if you have access to an entire solar system, and doubly so when you access to more then one.

One of the biggest conceits for sci fi setting is war. War is always more expensive, then not war. When you have defacto infinite space to expand into, you never have to interact with anyone you don't like to interact with.

There is nothing that an solar system has, that isnt found in any other solar system.
There can never be any border disputes. It'll be cheaper to simply leave then ti fight over any one solar system. There are defacto infinite others out there.
There can never be border tension. With the vast distances involved to travel, and most of that intervening space being pointless, then any violation of someone else space is always purposeful. And if you're violating their space purposefully, then you're being a moron. There isnt ever a reason to go war.
Ideological conflicts may rise, but most memes try to be efficient and its much easier to simply expand without conflict then to expand with conflict.
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1002 on: August 11, 2015, 08:45:52 pm »

(edit: Noting that I ignored the fact that many messages were written between me starting this and posting it.  This post doesn't answer some of the latest questions, or question some of the latest assumptions.)

The current concern for most current space-vehicles (i.e. satellites) is of orbital debris of various sizes (from well-tracked satellites that have died to the myriad of objects down to 'mere' flecks of paint and metal that are flying out there) that are whizzing around in the very orbital space that we're trying to keep our other stuff in.

Kinetic warfare is likely the way to go.  Perhaps with an explosive-led precursor 'shell', to generate shrapnel 'where' we want it (see below), although there might be benefit to keeping the explosive effect really subtle low, or even just somehow "throw the contents of the shotgun cartridge in a certain direction" rather than try to actually create an expanding cloud.

Likely the best way to destroy something in LEO, assuming you had the delta-V and time to wait, is to send a small bunch of virtually indetectable debris the opposite way round.  If you were sitting some distance off of a GPS satellite (slightly less than 12hrs orbital period), for example, you might chuck some black, low-radar-visibility debris (ceramics?) around the opposite direction designed to impact your target in six hours or so (both target and debris having gone 'half way round', in opposite directions) with a combined closing velocity of slightly less than 30,000 km/h, if head on, IIRC.  It'd be a 'slow-burn' attack, with the wait, but perhaps some variant of this tactic could be used in a first-strike scenario.  e.g a land-launched 'regular' (i.e. totally-innocent-honest) rocketry launch could stealthily a few small 'buckshot' loads at one or other stage-separation/cowling-jettisoning moment, but with enough accuracy/spread to end up impacting the intended targets.

The big problem would be to plan this attack (and your own future presence in orbit) taking into account the amount of cascading debris (and any 'buckshot' that missed the target, but continues onwards).  If you were taking out a 'neighbouring satellite' in this manner (from a platform you'd be manning, or otherwise not want to lose), then you'd probably also want to edge out of the way, as well, over the intervening six hours.  It wouldn't work against targets that themselves could move across orbits (or, at least, those that know there's something heading that way so that they can do so), but if initially you're relying on surprise (and possibly also in a manner that includes sufficient deniability) you've probably already got that covered.

Anyway, buckshot, primary debris and secondary/tertiary/etc debris would probably make orbital space a no-go-zone quite quickly (there's already enough undetectable debris out there to make some people rather worried).


For more direct/immediate attacks (or in planetary orbits/transfer orbits/interstellar trajectories that just don't lend themselves to the 'go round the other way' method), just buckshot directly with debris designed to circumvent the latest paradigms in micrometeorite defence.  That might mean firing a 'porcupine' of needles (designed for significant secondary penetration in sacrificial layers, perhaps a second 'wave' taking advantage of the holes the first impacting set created), shaped explosive charges primed to 'scattergun' just before impact (or act as a HEAT round, upon it), rapidly rotating debris (of various kinds), or even a mixture of each.

TBH, to compete with non-military-grade space-armour (assuming that there is even such a thing as the military-grade stuff) you'd really only need quantity.  And the opportunity to hit your target.  (Space being very very large and empty, as suggested above, I'm already assuming that there's a viable 'targeting solution' available to the aggressor.)


To fry electronics, I'd suggest (on the basis that in a world with 'ion guns' we probably also have these already handily in space, for our use) your basic nuclear bomb tuned for maximal EMP pulse/ionising radiation.  Chuck it in the direction of the enemy and detonate it (if necessary with the appropriate 'dial a yield') at the point when the effects on the enemy are greater than the effects upon you.  It doesn't need to hit, and in fact you might want to throw it 'over' the enemy (i.e. past them), before initiating a detonation that will mess with their systems (perhaps hardened and/or prepared, perhaps not) much more than it will mess with yours (probably hardened, but of course you would be prepared, isolating/earthing sensitive bits and pieces).  It may or may not also mess up structural integrity (through the radiated heat-pulse, probably, rather than any blast-wave through vacuum) and of course have primary/secondary/etc radiation effects upon anything biological in the ship you targeted, dependant upon the eventual distance and yield you made use of.  But the question was about electronics.  You could probably rival 'casual' space-weather (if not a head-on CME) with such a device.

Note: No backs-of-envelopes were harmed during the composing of this post, so I'm leaving it totally open as to how close you'd want to explode your nuclear device.  (But unless we're trying to get through supernova-proof shields, it'd probably do damage of one kind or other if in direct contact with the target... (Original context for that.))
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 08:49:13 pm by Starver »
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i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1003 on: August 11, 2015, 08:54:00 pm »

You've got to burn to slow down, though, and that's difficult to hide when approaching a target. It is pointed at them, after all.
Yeah, but we're still talking about warning consisting of hours or minutes instead of weeks. And you could even use the "I'm here" burn to hide your actual invasion or infiltration forces, by having your big ship just drop into orbit and then doing small sideways launches to launch the actual forces, concealing those particular burns by the heat signature of the larger one.

And really that has nothing to do with spaceship to spaceship fighting, because even in the event two spaceships were able to find one another the best bet would probably be to not actually approach your target until after they were destroyed by launching things at them that didn't have to slow down, then just coming back and picking through the rubble to get whatever it was that you wanted.

-snip-
I agree with everything you said except for one key thing. It is possible for a material resource to be scarce in the sense of how much is available at an economic price. For example let's assume that for some strange reason I need an incredibly enormous amount of iron, to build my vast and mighty spaceships. The cost and availability of iron that is sourced in-solar system (of which there is a distinct, relatively finite amount), is going to be magnitudes cheaper than me attempting to import iron from another solar system due to the vast distances involved in solar system to solar system travel. This means that it's totally possible to end up with a scenario where the limited resources in a given area are economically viable to harvest, while the unlimited amounts farther away are not viable, thus giving a situation where even though the total resources are essentially infinite, the total useful resources are not, and thus can lead to conflict.

On the other hand the only type of scenario in which we would need to be fighting aliens over our water would be if said aliens had already harvested all of the water from the various other planets in our solar system and their own, which most sci-fi works fail to account for.
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mainiac

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1004 on: August 11, 2015, 08:54:16 pm »

I had a crazy idea and I want to know if it's crazy like a fox or just crazy.  I'm thinking about airbraking spaceships without exiting them from orbit.  The breaking length of quality fishing line is 350 km while LEO "starts" around 120 km.  So I'm thinking, would it be possible to equip a spacecraft with a "kite" that would reach down to the upper atmosphere on a 300 km tether?  That way you could slow down for a stable orbit or an orbital rendezvous without expending fuel.

Suppose the kite was at 50km in height.  The atmosphere at that level is 10^-6 g/cm^3.  If the kite was moving at 10km/s (the speed of the Apollo 8 Trans-lunar injection departure), it would be creating 100 kN of drag per square meter of kite area, at least at first.  That is the same as the rocket thrust for the Apollo 8 injection burn.  But it would actually be a pretty small burden for the tether, most of the tether burden is the tether weight itself.

A complication would be that the kite moving at supersonic speeds would have all kinds of crazy aerodynamics to worry about.  But maybe those crazy aerodynamics could be put to some use.  The kite would be creating a pocket of pressurized air so maybe some of that air could be siphoned up the tether.  This way there would be a source of volatiles for the spacecraft.  With an ion engine it might even be possible to refull your tanks with nitrogen at earth by braking, go fly off to a different planet and then slingshot back to earth again to repeat the process.

So... crazy like a fox or just crazy?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 08:58:24 pm by mainiac »
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