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[greatorder]

Stupid thread was being filled with animals rights related debates. In order to reduce the size of the train wreck, I've made this thread.

Basically: Stop using the stupid thread, use this one.

[Shakerag]

Didn't we have one of these before?

[scrdest]

Didn't we have one of these before?

Possibly. I simply made this so we can get the stupid thread back on track.

Sorry, I had to post in the old thread. I already wrote the post when you edited and I'm typing in the phone so I can't really copy it until tomorrow.

[Shakerag]

Didn't we have one of these before?

Possibly. I simply made this so we can get the stupid thread back on track.

It almost always does eventually anyway. 

[ChairmanPoo]

And because it's simply not feasible to do some things otherwise. Mice are plentiful and easy to keep and study. Large primates are far less avaiable. You'd have to go Mengele on huge sectors of the populace simply to keep things going. Which yes, if you ask me, is far more dubious than animal experimentation. And even then it would not be practical for many kinds of tests.

[Shakerag]

Thing is, large amounts of things we test on animals has no benefit to the animals its being tested on. We're using animals because we don't want to endanger an individual (or individuals) of our own species due to the thought process of us being superior. (Probably a natural one. Once your species starts thinking it should die for that lion to get something to eat, it is doomed to extinction)

So, thought experiment time.

Let's suppose humans are superior to animals.  Let's suppose that this is justification for us to use them as food/experimentation/entertainment/etc.  Humans are okay with this because we get a "resource" that benefits us in a variety of ways without having to harm our own species.

Let's suppose there is an alien species that is superior to humans.  Stronger, smarter, telepathic ... some set of traits that sets them apart from us as much as animas are set apart from humans.  Let's suppose that this alien species is freely able to obtain humans for use as food/experiments/entertainment/etc. 

Do we, as humans, find this to be fair?  If not, why?

[scrdest]

And because it's simply not feasible to do some things otherwise. Mice are plentiful and easy to keep and study. Large primates are far less avaiable. You'd have to go Mengele on huge sectors of the populace simply to keep things going. Which yes, if you ask me, is far more dubious than animal experimentation. And even then it would not be practical for many kinds of tests.

Then again, both USA and USSR scavenged a fuckton of data from the more scientific human experimentation programs in Germany and Japan. Mengele himself was a half-educated hack who only got through his studies thanks to Nazi connections.

But yeah, good point - try studying genetics when you can't use things like Drosophila flies which multiply fast and die in a couple of weeks.

My own approach is that because we are humans, we, completely subjectively, are superior to any other animal when it comes to deciding who should live, and conversely had I been a, say, lion, I'd likewise say 'fuck humans, we rule'.

[Max White]

Thing is, large amounts of things we test on animals has no benefit to the animals its being tested on.

Yes, that is true. I will not contest that at all.

We're using animals because we don't want to endanger an individual (or individuals) of our own species due to the thought process of us being superior. (Probably a natural one. Once your species starts thinking it should die for that lion to get something to eat, it is doomed to extinction)

That is also very much true. We experiment on animals (Sometimes with horrifying results) because our other options are experiment on people (And that would sometimes lead to horrifying results) or not experiment (Resulting in the worst results of all!)

Yes, we prioritize human life above that of other animals. That isn't a license to do what ever you want, but still I accept every premise you present and still don't have a problem with animal testing.

[Neonivek]

Stupid thread was being filled with animals rights related debates. In order to reduce the size of the train wreck, I've made this thread.

Basically: Stop using the stupid thread, use this one.

I love how warm and inviting this is.

"I am making this thread so you cannot complain about it in the normal thread anymore because you have this cruddy thread"

large amounts of things we test on animals has no benefit to the animals its being tested on.

I don't know... Rouge seems to go well on some animals. (Bad joke)

[Shakerag]

We experiment on animals (Sometimes with horrifying results) because our other options are experiment on people (And that would sometimes lead to horrifying results) or not experiment (Resulting in the worst results of all!)

Still a false dichotomy.

[Max White]

Still a false dichotomy.

If it works then lets be honest, it is more commercially viable than maintaining animals. They take up space, they require food, they require more effort to keep quarantined. Animal testing is expensive.
If vitro research can produce reliable results we have nothing to worry about in regards to animal welfare because this is one of those rare and special moments when the moral choice is cheaper, and so the free market does what it was meant to.

[freeformschooler]

Do we, as humans, find this to be fair?  If not, why?

That doesn't really follow. We're assuming two sapient species (instead of what's happening now). We're capable of understanding what's fair and what's not, and supposedly, so are our alien aggressors. I use aggressors here because I think, if mice were capable of abstract thought and had the ability to start a revolution against scientists experimenting on them, they would (much like I bet we would if the alien thing happened).

But they aren't and don't. So we experiment on them. That's really the fundamental reason why, I think: 'lower' animals just means animals who 'lost.' They didn't invent cages and aren't using them.

I'm not going to go into the actual ethics, so don't you dare try.

[Neonivek]

Doesn't matter if the thread is crummy

You could have tried a little.

[Owlga]

Doesn't matter if the thread is crummy

You could have tried a little.

You're expecting a likely just under or over 20 year old male on the internet who didn't even know what the word fap actually meant to put any effort into starting a thread. Sights set way too high there.

[kaijyuu]

Why should we expect anything from those dirty 20 year old males? I mean sheesh, the scum.