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Author Topic: Anti-Intellectualism  (Read 7151 times)

Tyg13

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 10:12:52 pm »

I did not make this thread with a clear head, and it shows in the original post. I kinda wish I could just make it go away. It's embarrassing and upon rereading comes off as a bit pretentious.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think everyone is stupid, or even that the large majority of people are stupid. I just feel like there's a lack of wonder in the world nowadays. People take the world for granted, without even stopping to wonder how things works or why. When you ask someone to describe anything beyond the scope of their everyday life, like how a light bulb works or why the seasons change, they don't know. And that's not the part that I take issue with. I'm not mad at that person for not knowing something. What confuses me is the fact that they don't care at all.

I get that's not necessarily a bad thing, and people typically have more to do with their life than figure things out. A large amount of very intelligent, great, successful people probably don't know the answers to those questions, and probably don't care either. Me, I can't understand that mindset. I can't think of a world where I see something I don't understand and don't wonder how it works, or try and figure it out somehow. I try to live a life constantly wondering about one thing or another, trying to figure things out. The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

God, I probably come off as some kind of elitist "at least I still wonder" asshole who's trying to make himself sound superior to everyone else. I feel like that's a problem I have. I don't want to come off as elitist or superior, and I don't feel like one of those people, but I get this feeling like I really am. Before I stopped talking to people about non-superficial matters, I would consistently get classified as an intellectual snob. It hurts to come to that realization. I just really wish I could talk to people about these sorts of things and actually get a response other than "I don't care." I love being fascinated by everything. Because then when I finally understand it, there's this feeling of pleasure unparalleled by all other experience. Being able to look at a mathematical proof of something like Euler's identity and understand it gives me this feeling of bliss that I wish I could share, but no one I know honestly cares.
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Darkmere

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 10:34:51 pm »

So seek out other people? *shrug* There's almost 7 billion people on this rock; someone somewhere probably agrees with you on some things. Go to college, check with MENSA, join a book club? You may have to do a bit of work, but pick an interest and look for others also interested. You'd be pretty surprised...

Put another way, you can resent people for being unlike you, or find people who ARE like you. The latter is more productive.
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Vector

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 11:07:45 pm »

There's an entire community of people who will tell you, not only that they also love Euler, but that you're stupid for failing to wonder about any of the billions of other amazing mathematical things you haven't even noticed.

If you like math, then go be a mathematician.
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Gervassen

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 12:46:44 am »

The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

Well, I can. Obviously, the subject of average people doesn't interest you much.  People and their social dynamics can be fascinating, but you choose to disregard this fruitful garden of intellectual growth.  ;)
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freeformschooler

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 10:08:56 am »

The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

Well, I can. Obviously, the subject of average people doesn't interest you much.  People and their social dynamics can be fascinating, but you choose to disregard this fruitful garden of intellectual growth.  ;)

Oh no you di-int.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 10:28:44 am »

Let's be honest here, if we bash Justin Birber or Twilight, it's not because of their piss-poor quality, which I neither contest nor support (given that I've never read or heard either nor do I intend to). No, we simply do it to reinforce our masculinity via groupwa..think.
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Darkmere

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 10:36:11 am »

Let's be honest here, if we bash Justin Birber or Twilight, it's not because of their piss-poor quality, which I neither contest nor support (given that I've never read or heard either nor do I intend to). No, we simply do it to reinforce our masculinity via groupwa..think.

I agree with this, to an extent. There's really no justifiable excuse for downtalking how other people spend their leisure time when it doesn't affect you, except to reinforce self-image. I also fully admit that I do this often, and am trying to improve.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Tyg13

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 11:24:27 am »

The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

Well, I can. Obviously, the subject of average people doesn't interest you much.  People and their social dynamics can be fascinating, but you choose to disregard this fruitful garden of intellectual growth.  ;)

Ha, actually average people interest me quite a great deal. They confuse me greatly. I often find myself fascinated by the way that people maintain different self-images in different environments and different people. Being an "average" person myself, I find it fun to compare other's behaviors to my own, to see where potential flaws in my personality lie.

But I get your point, there are obviously a lot of things that I'm not particularly interested in. I suppose I just find it difficult to find meaningful, intelligent conversations with my peers in high school. I wish there were somewhere other than here where I could have those kinds of discussions because right now I feel really cooped up in my own head. At least I'm graduating and, finances allowing, going to college where I'll be able to have that kind of discourse. Everything at this level is so dumbed down and mind-numbingly simple that I just can't take it anymore.

Does anyone know of any forums or something like that where I can talk about maths and the sciences? Especially math. I love math so much, and I've hit a roadblock in my mathematical studies. I've made my way through most of Calculus I-III in my own studies, but I'm stuck in Calc I in high school. I feel like there's a whole world of knowledge out there I'm missing, being stuck here in this drab, uninspiring high school where everything is catered to a standardized test.
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weenog

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 02:10:41 pm »

Does anyone know of any forums or something like that where I can talk about maths and the sciences?

Seriously?  All that talk about wonder and curiosity, and you start with asking us to do the work for you, rather than hitting a search engine, starting with something like "math forum", and exploring the internet for yourself?   That's a bit of a surprise.

Others have already covered the problem of coming off like a condescending know-it-all.  All I'll add to that part is that you might try asking people "Was that a rhetorical question and just thinking aloud, or would you like to talk simple, quick-and-dirty physics for a few minutes?"  It won't solve all your social problems, but it might help you learn their intent, and if they're going to get upset with you, at least you save a few minutes of time getting the nasty reaction out quickly.

A part of the problem that hasn't been addressed, as far as I've seen, is your age.  In your profile you profess to be 17 years old; if this is the truth, that has a significant impact on biases -- both other people's biases about you, and yours about the world.  You're all looking at each other through distorted lenses.

A well-known stereotype about your age group is that they know nothing of anything and think they know it all.  Unfortunately, like many stereotypes, there is a grain of truth there.  People learn a lot of new things in their adolescence, even those who don't recognize it or try to hide it, and this massive influx of knowledge tends to lead them to believe they understand more than they really do.  Furthermore, because many cultures shelter them from a lot of what adult life entails, they tend to be unprepared for and blind to a lot of what older people think of as the real world.  Listening to a teenager tell you about how the world works is a lot like listening to a plumber advising you to sort out a brain tumour problem with a pipe wrench and some caulk, or a shoe salesman suggesting you fix a leak by bringing home many different sizes, shapes, and styles of pipe and see which feels the best.  It's a crazy waste of breath, and an idiotic imposition on your time.  On the rare occasion you do encounter a plumber who is also a neurosurgeon, or trying to sell you shoes, you're unlikely to believe that's really the case.

A thing that you probably don't grok yet, because you haven't experienced much of it yet, is tempus fugit -- time flees.  You talk about people's lack of curiosity and wonder, but have you stopped to consider that they simply don't have the time nor the energy to fritter away on something that ranks very low on their priority list?  People can be busier than then'y look, particularly when those people have many real responsibilities.

Here I had planned to give you an hour-by-hour breakdown of my typical week at 32 years old, but I've already spent too much precious time on this post.  Let it suffice to say that in order to keep a roof over my head and my girl's, keep the utilities from being shut off, maintain my health, invest for retirement in a couple short decades, and make progress towards getting out of the dead-end job I hate and into genuine career, I need about 200 hours a week (there are 168 hours in a week).  Most of the time, my head is buzzing like a hornet's nest, I have to think so hard on the hoof.  I have always been the curious type, but I'm not going to appreciate it when I'm trying to figure out how to rearrange my schedule so I can work one more 10-hour shift this week, go put the fear of god into the mechanics that are ripping my girl off and fucking up her truck, find a reasonably-priced online college algebra course, examine and analyze the recent stock market movements so I can determine where to put my next investment, and schedule and practice for a road test so I can get a long-overdue driver's license, and somebody comes up and wants to play encyclopedia at me... even if it is a subject I do find interesting.  I'd love to learn more about a type of spider web I've never seen before -- I find arachnids fascinating -- but it's not worth being kicked back out into the snow in winter because I missed a rent payment.

You find school boring and pointless.  So do many people, for various reasons.  I did, I'd already learned most of what was taught on my own time, ahead of time, and I rebelled.  The whole system seemed like a screwed up waste of time.  I don't have the time to go into details, but you seem like you have copious free time.  Why don't you go read this essay?  I read it when I had far fewer responsibilities and I had the time to do that kind of thing, and I found it illuminating.
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Jelle

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 04:05:11 pm »

God, I probably come off as some kind of elitist "at least I still wonder" asshole who's trying to make himself sound superior to everyone else.

See I didn't get that impression at all. All I saw was someone who is frustrated and in dire need of some mental stimulation. To see it as trying to assert superiority seems...odd to me.

Culture bashers don't usually talk to the people they're actually bashing, though.  It's just a symbol of superiority.  "Hey, you know, you and me, how we all hate Keeping up with the Kardashians. . ."

Say to a 13-year-old girl's face "Twilight sucks ass but I respect you as a person," or to a 3-year-old "Teletubbies suck but I think you'll grow up okay," and I'll say you're still completely missing the point, but at least you've demonstrated that you have convictions you believe in that are totally detached from bashing on "the sort of person who likes THAT sort of thing."  But, truth is, I've pretty much never seen these behaviors anywhere except as ways to identify yourself as part of a group--a group that is an improvement.

I don't disagree, but this is well and truly in the realm of opinions. Sure you can state your mind in a factual matter, 'I dont like x or y for reason a and b', but like you say that rarely happens. Instead it is exlaimed as a social truth in order to socially dominate the people who would belong to that group.
What I meant was acceptance of factual scientific things. e.g. Many in the states  refuse the theory of evolution (this is still true right?) despite overwhelming scientific evidence, because it is socially accepted that other opposing less scientific theorem are valid. In this case I think it's fine to go against the grain and stand by reason.

I think there is a big difference, sadly not something many agree with, who would call it all social domineering.

Why don't you go read this essay?  I read it when I had far fewer responsibilities and I had the time to do that kind of thing, and I found it illuminating.
Yes, I will enjoy reading this. Much oblidged.
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Vector

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 08:01:52 pm »

Yes--I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough, Jelle.  I wasn't thinking clearly...


OP, here are your first two assignments.

1. Read Phaedrus.  Report back if you want to discuss.
2. Read, and do all exercises in, Principles of Real Analysis by Walter Rudin.

That should keep you pleasantly occupied for a while =]
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Tyg13

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2013, 09:03:31 pm »

I have to say, that essay did a pretty good job of reframing a lot of the poorly formed conclusions I'd reached from my own observations, as well as bring up some insights I could have never reached on my own. I actually don't typically stress a lot about being popular, or even liked, to be quite honest. I've long ago recognized that different people are good at different things, based on their interests, and being popular is just something I'm not interested in. Though I never really thought of being popular as being a skill, I can see the rationale behind treating it as such. I never really considered the idea it was the system that was creating the harsh environment of middle/high school, I had always bought into the whole "hormones" crap. There are a few gems of optimism in there, though and I appreciated the analysis. I think illuminating is the right word. I especially like the bit at the end, where it contrasts the dynamic between adults and teenagers in the Renaissance versus modern day. Never really imagined that there ever could be a world where teenagers respected adults and vice versa. Perhaps it's just the lack of perspective that comes with youth.

Oh, and I am 17, so there's always that. Explains the insecurity in my previous posts. And the inability to phrase my thoughts and frustrations in a coherent manner.

Yes--I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough, Jelle.  I wasn't thinking clearly...


OP, here are your first two assignments.

1. Read Phaedrus.  Report back if you want to discuss.
2. Read, and do all exercises in, Principles of Real Analysis by Walter Rudin.

That should keep you pleasantly occupied for a while =]

Okay, you are awesome. Both of those books sound incredibly interesting. I'll have to shop around and see if I can get a copy of Principles of Real Analysis on the cheap or at the library. As for Phaedrus, I'd figure something that old would be available on the internet for free. Very cool. Thanks again.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 09:17:54 pm by Tyg13 »
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nephilimnexus

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2013, 04:27:47 pm »

I'd also like to suggest "The Image" by Daniel Borstein.

As the public's demand for information has increased the amount of actual information has become stretched thin to the point of complete irrelevance.  Therefore, it's not so much as people suffer from information overload but rather an underwhelming since of triviality to everything because it's all been painted too thin for anyone to care anymore.
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Korbac

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2013, 06:21:41 pm »

I'd also like to suggest "The Image" by Daniel Borstein.

As the public's demand for information has increased the amount of actual information has become stretched thin to the point of complete irrelevance.  Therefore, it's not so much as people suffer from information overload but rather an underwhelming since of triviality to everything because it's all been painted too thin for anyone to care anymore.

Also the fact that we can just grab any facts from the webs so there's no repercussions to not learning many things. :P
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Zangi

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Re: Anti-Intellectualism
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2013, 08:19:00 pm »

I'd also like to suggest "The Image" by Daniel Borstein.

As the public's demand for information has increased the amount of actual information has become stretched thin to the point of complete irrelevance.  Therefore, it's not so much as people suffer from information overload but rather an underwhelming since of triviality to everything because it's all been painted too thin for anyone to care anymore.

Also the fact that we can just grab any facts from the webs so there's no repercussions to not learning many things. :P
Wrong, there are still repercussions.  People just don't understand that.

Plus, not so great edumacation system... with an abyss sized maw that is never satisfied.
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