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Author Topic: Multiplayer  (Read 3309 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2013, 09:08:38 am »

Why does everyone forget about Adventure Mode when talkiing about multiplayer. It would me still hard but much easier to make with AdvM. You can already swap bodies with your companions via DFHack. If someone made it possible that your game can recieve the input of another player online, we are very close to a DF multiplayer.
Nobody forgets about it. Point is, adventure mode is, even more so than Fortress mode, a turn based game. Without a major rewrite of the code, the game will be quite laggy. (Every single tick, it will have to get actions of both players, combine them, calculate the result. That's going to lag tremendously)
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xRDVx

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2013, 02:15:30 pm »

Why does everyone forget about Adventure Mode when talkiing about multiplayer. It would me still hard but much easier to make with AdvM. You can already swap bodies with your companions via DFHack. If someone made it possible that your game can recieve the input of another player online, we are very close to a DF multiplayer.
Nobody forgets about it. Point is, adventure mode is, even more so than Fortress mode, a turn based game. Without a major rewrite of the code, the game will be quite laggy. (Every single tick, it will have to get actions of both players, combine them, calculate the result. That's going to lag tremendously)

Some people might be okay with that, since they would be playing with their friends with whom they can talk and deal with those issues. Or in the case of fortress play, I wouldn't mind it if you had a server that ran the worlds (running on multiple cores, preferably) and everyone just connected to it through a DFterm-like interface to either the same fort or different forts. Then you wouldn't have to deal with de-sync between people but just local, and you can just adjust the speed of everyone else(or pause at key-points).
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Criperum

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2013, 01:29:30 am »

Multiplayer game speed and sync is not main problem. It's a matter of good code and hardware. The real problem is combat system. It's heavy tied with player decisions  about every move and hit. It's totally turn-based and there is no way to tune it slightly to fit multiplayer. Just need to make new system from scratch. And I doubdt that Toady would do it, at least in the nearest future(10-15 years)
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PeridexisErrant

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2013, 04:38:08 am »

There's a utility called dfterm3 which is capable of co-op multiplayer, essentially letting you and a friend both have input and share a view over the web in real time.  This would probably be enough for OP's request. 
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Lidku

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 03:01:28 pm »

Maybe after Toady is done making Slaves to Armok II, he could make III Specifically made for Multiplayer !!FUN!! Imagine playing Rise of the Mushrooms kingdoms mod with your friends.  ;)
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Liamar

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2013, 03:55:18 am »

Why does everyone think that turn-based gameplay is a problem. That's nonsense.

It isn't a problem at all when two players are playing on one fort, the pause simply stops the game for both of them and both of them can continue giving commands in that time.
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Snaake

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2013, 09:56:30 am »

There's a utility called dfterm3 which is capable of co-op multiplayer, essentially letting you and a friend both have input and share a view over the web in real time.  This would probably be enough for OP's request.

Why does everyone think that turn-based gameplay is a problem. That's nonsense.

It isn't a problem at all when two players are playing on one fort, the pause simply stops the game for both of them and both of them can continue giving commands in that time.

dfterm3 - multiplayer is decent fun already, if the lag/crashyness issues are any better than when I last tried. It would be much more fun, if multiple cursors, i.e. multiple simultaneous inputs were possible. Then we could have true collaborative building. The menus would pause, sure, but the players would have to agree on that themselves. But that would require a rewrite of how DF handles keyboard/mouse inputs, and would be useful only for that type of gameplay. For more extensive rewrites, some of the pausing menus could be changed so that players would choose whether they pause while browsing or not. I'm assuming that many menus require the game to be paused when you e.g. add or delete jobs (be they designations or workshop jobs) and such, but even if that's true, it could be possible to browse the menus without pausing, then when the command is given by a player, do a quick (automatic) pause-issue command-unpause. If that's too laggy, collect commands into a buffer like DwarfTherapist does. Would be really fun though, to have multiple simultaneous overminds on a single fort, instead of the current multiple personalities fighting for control in one overmind that dfterm3 does at the moment.


As for the "multiple forts in the same world" type of multiplayer, possibly with caravans, raiding parties, patrols, military assistance expeditions (to help lift sieges), stuff like that... well, that could be interesting. If caravans are set to happen in a fixed season each year, you could e.g. make the decisions about the caravans before the end of spring (assuming autumn caravans for dwarves like now), and then the world would be synced at the end of spring. That would allow each player to play out a 1-year "turn" at their own pace, before syncing has to be done. This would be  similar to a play by email type of strategy game (e.g. The civilization franchise), except the "turns" of 1 dwarven year aren't played around the table by each player, but simultaneously, and then they're combined in the "end of turn" processing (there have been at least tactical turn-based games that handle combat like this. You either tell your guys to shoot in some direction as suppressive fire/because you assume enemies will be coming from there, or use some kind of overwatch mode, where they shoot on their own initiative if they see the enemy). For 2 player games there isn't much difference, btu the latter approach makes it much easier to increase the player count without vastly increasing the time you have to wait for your turn again. Heck, with the coming retiring AI, you could even give an ultimatum that if people don't play their turn on time, their fort will be handled by handled as being retired for that year.

This would still require splitting the world-advancement processes from the regular fortress gameplay stuff in a way that's probably different than what's being done at the moment/in the next patch. E.g. at the end of turn, you'd probably have to predetermine what migrants, sieges, megabeasts, FBs, animals (if any populations are shared between the forts), possibly caravans, and so forth, all the players get the next year, so you don't get a historical figure attacking/migrating to 2 different forts. Caravans are a possibly because currently they just come and go from thin air, but that's set to change; once traded items are tracked in even an abstract way, the stuff they bring to the fort would have to be generated in at least that abstract way, e.g. X food, Y weapons supplies, prior to any caravans "setting off" towards the forts.

For the military-type stuff mentioned above, we'd have to wait until the DF version that adds sending out patrols/counter-raids against goblins, anyway (AFAIK, planned but little or no timeline features). To be able to do this sort of thing at any time, you'd need to keep the world synced much more often than 1 year, but you could maybe also give orders for the whole year in advance. Or for a slightly more frequent interval that still allows some independent play time for people, once a season or once a month syncs. Imagine all forts are at least 2 weeks away from each other (for one sync per month). The communications delays would also make things more interesting, if you have to employ dwarven couriers to send messages etc. Extra points if the couriers and armies (patrols etc.) actually travel to the destination on the map, thus taking longer to get to faraway forts, and extraextra points if they can get attacked/obstructed on their mission. The army movement stuff is already coming in the next version though, so that isn't a big problem.

The above 2 variants, or some slightly more developed versions of them, are I think the closest to multiplayer DF that we could sensibly get without making it a vastly different game. But as mentioned before, Toady has expressed no interest in doing any kind of multiplayer. I think the systems I roughly laid out above might still be possible a few versions/years from now if the external plugins and such would advance enough (especially the armies stuff needs a few releases), and definitely possible (though not assured to happen) if the DF source code is ever released. Which is going to take at least a decade, and probably several decades (until DF is ready and/or official development stops).
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Snaake

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 09:57:55 am »

Maybe after Toady is done making Slaves to Armok II, he could make III Specifically made for Multiplayer !!FUN!! Imagine playing Rise of the Mushrooms kingdoms mod with your friends.  ;)

This is just as unlikely as adding multiplayer to Slaves to Armok II I think, since IIRC Toady isn't interested in multiplayer games (or at least not coding them) in general, it's not just a reticence to add multiplayer to DF.
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Icefire2314

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2013, 07:55:15 pm »

Yeah, our best hope as far as multiplayer (RT multiplayer that is) would be Toady at least coding some support for it and some ambitious modder builds on that. Otherwise, dfterm is likely the best you can get to, which hardly qualifies as multiplayer, more co-op than anything, which could also be achieved with succession-forts (in a sense)
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PeridexisErrant

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Re: Multiplayer
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2013, 11:52:40 pm »

dfterm3 - multiplayer is decent fun already, if the lag/crashyness issues are any better than when I last tried. It would be much more fun, if multiple cursors, i.e. multiple simultaneous inputs were possible. Then we could have true collaborative building. ... multiple simultaneous overminds on a single fort, instead of the current multiple personalities fighting for control in one overmind that dfterm3 does at the moment.

Warmist is working on this, though no ETA that I'm aware of yet.  It does look pretty exciting though...
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