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[Mephansteras]

Pretty much anything is possible with resurrections. Scum can't come back as Town (for obvious reasons) but other than that I have situations for about everything else.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin

I wouldn't go as far as to say 'disturbing'. Also, people always talk differently in different settings. In a scumchat you're typically not trying to defend yourself or develop complex counterarguments.

And so what I do is wholly disturbing to everyone! Woohoo!

Um... in case you didn't notice, I was actually defending you.

I did notice ;_; And then I made it worse!

(I think you overreact a bit sometimes but you're a teenager and so that's somewhat understandable.)

Buh? People say I'm very mature for my age so...I think the overreacting bit there is due to either past emotional/mental trauma or something bad that it provokes me assuming something which may or may not exist in the first place.

I think Toony's point is that often it's not immediately clear what you're trying to say and so it makes it a tad more effort to argue against you.

I'm sure you have difficulties understanding what I have to say sometimes (like with the the idioms and Britishisms I use), so it goes both ways.

Y'know, half of this argument would be nonexistent if he said the bolded part in the first place without appending the note of hate on it. Then it would be easier, because we'd be going the diplomatic route. "[quotes] This I don't fully understand. Reword please?" I got none of that. At all.

Your 'difficulties' are obvious, which I wonder how I see them as "difficulties" given how they are interpreted (I just don't fully get what is meant but I see the metaphorical meaning you try to say). And I like idioms and Britishisms because they're new. However, how I do my thing is... "different" seeing how everyone else sees it. :s And I don't know what to say to the bolded portion...what can I improve on?

Pretty much anything is possible with resurrections. Scum can't come back as Town (for obvious reasons) but other than that I have situations for about everything else.

Yep! Like how Meph detailed a scenario if a post-dead scum revives as anything else but scum, the scumchat is taken away from him (and I really think he'll end-up third-party at best)
...
Though I worry how that will be interpreted as said revived-person can..tell on their previous buddies (if neutral-aligned) or use that thing as a probable bargaining chip (any-nonmafia-aligned). Any fixes for that, Meph?

[Toaster]

Which is why a scum can't come back as town.

[Persus13]

Eh, to be honest I just skipped over reading most of the walls of text in this game from everybody, and there were a lot of them...
When you already know that peoples speculation is wrong, it makes for less compelling reading. So yea, the game was a lot of fun, but I spent pretty much all of it in the mafia equivalent of facerolling.

I did the same towards the end. I figured the game was going to end if NQT wasn't scum and there wasn't anything I could do in the night.

[notquitethere]

Why was I cursed with such terrible town allies.

[Tiruin]

Why was I cursed with such terrible town allies.

*hugs*

You did well though

[Max White]

Why was I cursed with such terrible town allies.

Mostly your inability to not look scummy...
Really when you specifically act in a certain way, and then make reviews that place you as the most townie player because of that, such as moving your vote around the most, people are smart enough to realize that you could very easily be scum making up a criteria to suit yourself rather than do anything productive.

Also I actually managed to convince you to not vote for me on day three, that didn't help. I'm amazed anybody actually voted Persus. Heck I would have lynched me in a second as soon as Imp counter claimed!

[Tiruin]

Also I actually managed to convince you to not vote for me on day three, that didn't help. I'm amazed anybody actually voted Persus. Heck I would have lynched me in a second as soon as Imp counter claimed!

We were all dumbfounded when Imp intervened
*pats Max on shoulder*

[Imp]

And I don't know what to say to the bolded portion...what can I improve on?

Practice speaking Directly, as well as indirectly.

You 'sometimes' have a very circular way of speaking, where you reference (or fail to exclude) multiple things at once, making it a serious job to tell what the heck you are referring to, and to tell what you are NOT talking about.

For example, I scrolled back to this thread to randomly grab your first larger post I spotted.

Most recent pertinent posts of mine precluding those above:

I translate that sentence to 'directly mean' "Ignore my recent tiny posts, this is what I've really said last"

Huh?  So now I have to interpret what you mean... more work much more work, but I -think you really mean "I've been gone a few days, reminding everyone what I last talked about, which was important to me and should be to you too:"

ToonyMan

@Tiruin (FoS for emphasis):
What do you think of Caz?  Why are you switching your vote so much?

Now I had this thing saved for days, and I love how you link back to it WITHOUT CHECKING THE CONTEXT. Let me round that FoS to you, handsome.

Direct translation:  "I have something I wrote before, it's days old now.  Toonyman, you are talking about, and FoSing me over something days old without examining all the important connected factors.  I FoS you right back"

Interpretation:  "I wrote something days ago, but for some reason I'm not going to discuss now, I am going to tell everyone I wrote something unspecified days ago and not tell you what it is or post it as is.  Total subject jump, now I'm talking about how annoyed I am at Toonyman for bringing up something days old, you took it out of context, you're wrong, you're suspiciously wrong, and I FoS you for it too."

Caz is a LIAR. Switching a vote so much equals...what. Once? Or he may be very muchly lazy, but said laziness extends to his first replies to me. Subtle undermining seems to be a better ploy than just laziness, where I see it.

Direct translation:  "Caz is a LIAR..  Switching a vote is [something untranslatable, thoughts are not expressed enough to understand].  Or he's lazy, I'll point that out.  Except I really mean subtle undermining when I say lazy."

Indirect interpretation:  "Appeal to emotion, Toonyman is being a jerk for supporting Caz who is being much worse than a jerk, he's a liar.  Caz's attack on me for switching my vote is garbage, it doesn't mean anything.  I'm unsure about it (or something) myself, but I'm changing the topic to another problem I have with Caz, that he's acting very lazy and has been in every answer to me about this.  I think he's not actually being lazy, he's trying to subtly undermine something I won't specify here.  That's what I really think is going on."

And I could go on with this, but that's a fair example - what you are ACTUALLY saying is painfully hard to translate, even directly, and I have to go 'very broad focus' to put it into context and pull out 'what you really appear most likely to mean'.

Compared to a random quote of yours pulled from that game's Scumchat:

"Anywhoo, Toaster. If lack of reason dictates lack of an idea, I believe you targeted Toony for being the middleman. If 'x' was scummiest, then we'll follow up the lynch on the morrow. The culprit of second-best follows the notion that if 'y' was next to scummiest, then it'll eliminate the gap between the scummiest--who has to defend on a ton of pressure (and I believe, goes on your adage of 'cracking town or scum' due to pressure), and aids in the general notion (against the traditional notion of 'I WILL KILL SCUMMIEST PERSON')"

Direct translation:  "Toaster, since you have a problem with not having a reason to do it, here's my suggestion.  Since One person's [unnamed] the scummiest, they're getting lynched tomorrow.  The second most Scummiest is going to get away with it, at least from the lynch.  The most Scummiest probably isn't getting away, and they'll show their Scummyness or Townness under the pressure, which helps Town and explains why you didn't kill the Scummiest."

Indirect interpretation:  "Toaster, if you didn't plan why to explain what you did, this makes sense to me as to why you would have:  You went against the main idea of 'kill the Scummiest person' because you felt that person would be lynched, and you went for the next most scummiest, because that widened the gap and made the Scummiest person stand out more and made sure that the next Scummiestdidnt get away."


Tiruin, this touches upon what I'm going 'meh' about with your use of language clarity between Scumchat and non-Scumchat.  See how similar the indirect interpretation and direct translations are from Scum chat?  I'm not having to -work- to understand you there.  You appear to actually be saying what you mean far more closely than you do when you're speaking out of Scumchat, and outside you repeatedly seem to be adding in extra 'qualifiers', and removing a lot of 'definites' that would aid clarity greatly.

You're "Talking like a Tarot Deck" - you're speaking so ambiguously that you are almost forcing those interacting with you to try and guess at what you mean - like someone can 'get a reading from the Tarot cards' because that person 'makes a story up' from the vague symbols presented.

[Imp]

Why was I cursed with such terrible town allies.

Mostly your inability to not look scummy...
Really when you specifically act in a certain way, and then make reviews that place you as the most townie player because of that, such as moving your vote around the most, people are smart enough to realize that you could very easily be scum making up a criteria to suit yourself rather than do anything productive.

Also I actually managed to convince you to not vote for me on day three, that didn't help. I'm amazed anybody actually voted Persus. Heck I would have lynched me in a second as soon as Imp counter claimed!

Thanks NQT.  I'm proud to be a terrible ally.

Hey, in your modification of the 'plan' that had me targeting Tiruin, Tiruin redirecting me to Persus -

You told Persus/everyone to kill Imp if Tiruin died.

Excuse me... I need to go punch a wall.  Then I'll come back and calmly finish typing this question....


Oww.  alright.  Now explain please, how Imp -possibly- could be the Scum, and could have killed Tiruin in that scenario?

I'mma rub my hand and go pop some popcorn.  Cause really, I think what you propose is flipping insane.  I actually want you to rub my nose in it, NQT, over explain as excessively as you please [explain it any way you can!  Choke me with shame if you can!] as to how Tiruin dying when Tiruin is supposed to redirect Imp to Persus means Imp should be lynched.

[Tiruin]

So what is correct are:
> "I've been gone a few days, reminding everyone what I last talked about, which was important to me and should be to you too:"

> Direct translation:  "I have something I wrote before, it's days old now.  Toonyman, you are talking about, and FoSing me over something days old without examining all the important connected factors.[...]
= He didn't even bother to check his reasoning there and I don't see how in the world it hopped towards the thing with Toaster. Like a huge leap of logic which leaves a huge gap to fill in how you got there.

That's why I kept on asking whywhywhywhy. >_<

> Indirect interpretation:  "Appeal to emotion[...]
= I did notice his error, and the notice of 'switching your vote so much' is already wrong [as well as going tangentially in that logic] given that I only did it once.


> Compared to a random quote of yours pulled from that game's Scumchat:[...]
= Which I mostly copy Imp's reason for why Toony was outed--the middleman.

You're "Talking like a Tarot Deck" - you're speaking so ambiguously that you are almost forcing those interacting with you to try and guess at what you mean - like someone can 'get a reading from the Tarot cards' because that person 'makes a story up' from the vague symbols presented.

Well..people could say that I should reword what I said..
nobody did that and all I got was flak and pain.
Sorry..


PPE:
NQT was being sarcastic, and didn't mean that in how it was written.

Also Max is silly sometimes.

[Max White]

Max is always silly, even when he is serious.
Its a game, and more so than that a game with no real answer. Kind of like hide and seek, the best spot becomes the worst spot when everybody knows where it is.

[Imp]

Well I do want it explained.  Because I think it's nuts.  I think that with Tiruin knowing to redirect Imp to Persus, the -one player that could not have killed Tiruin if Tiruin dies is Imp-.

I think that's blindingly obvious.  Elementary level logic.

I don't appreciate 'random punches' thrown at me.  I happen to be the teammate of NQT's who he singled out twice in game to tell me he needed to talk with me after the game about identifying what is and isn't Scummy.   And after the game, when he speaks about it he says:

Imp

Oh.  And NQT.  A rather humbled Imp's interested in listening to that talk whenever you'd like to start it.

Basically: whatever you thought was a scum tell for me, is definitely not a scum tell. As you can see from my spreadsheet, scum tend to have the fewest genuine targets for suspicion. If a player seems Hamlet-like in indecision and appears to frequently reassess their views, then they're probably not scum. If a player is willing to put significant effort into assessing people's actions throughout the the game, then they're probably not scum.

So I should throw out everything about him I thought was Scummy.  Guess what?  That's just about -everything he did-.  He hit a good... I dunno.  From Defensiveness, to lying/insisting that things were not facts actually were facts, to using an apparently untried system of 'analysis' to identify Scum that even he failed to use - but worse, he was attempting to apply and talk about using while creating it and testing it.  God, there's more.



NQT, I think you may be mad at the balance of the game and/or how the game played out.  But you are freaking not innocent and blameless in the fact that Town didn't win.  And Town didn't lose just because you had such terrible allies.  You weren't exactly perfect yourself.

[Persus13]

Yeah, but we did miss some obvious clues. Like the fact that Tiruin said she got a no action flavor, something that doesn't normally happen, and that she was getting defensive about being an illusionist.

[Persus13]

Also I wasn't able to post because I was at school, but NQT's spreadsheet seemed like a very town thing to have.