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Author Topic: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread  (Read 26230 times)

gman8181

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #135 on: October 27, 2013, 10:34:32 pm »

Small amounts of powergaming are likely going to slip in even if people aren't actively trying to. A little bit is probably okay (even a good thing potentially if it progresses plot) but too much can easily ruin the game.

I wouldn't expect Azthor to not react to my actions, if he sees them as a threat to his character, any more than I would personally let what I see as an attack on me slide. Neither one of us wants to lose "power" or more specifically a spot of influence within the game and both of us want to promote our own character's story and plot. To that end we are both going to take whatever actions we can within reason and allowance of the person running the game to assert ourselves (which I suppose would involve a small amount of powergaming at least due to its somewhat inherently competitive nature). In best case scenarios, these type of interactions turn into good writing, interesting plot and leaves everyone feeling at least somewhat satisfied while in bad circumstances, it devolves into something less spectacular.

Basically I was under the impression that despite our god state, we wouldn't actually be aware of other actions until they actually happened. Furthermore, I had assumed that actions did not occur until the turn is posted by the GM as opposed to whenever we post them. This to me, seems like the best way to avoid overly metagame / powergame actions while preventing people from exploiting weird time mechanics where the person who posts first apparently acts first by an unknown amount of time while gaining no advantages while the people acting later conversely gain advantages while seemingly losing nothing from acting later in this unknowable period of time. Effectively what I thought was that everything we all do happens at the same basic time period and then reactionary actions would happen within the next "move phase".
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ragnarok97071

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #136 on: October 27, 2013, 10:40:32 pm »

The issue with that is that years, even centuries, hell, millenia can pass between one turn and the next, so waiting for the turn post for things like that makes no sense.
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gman8181

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #137 on: October 27, 2013, 10:55:44 pm »

Sorry, I did a slightly poor job of expressing my view. I didn't really mean that all our actions have to happen at the same time in game so much as I meant that the order of us posting shouldn't influence it. The actual order of our actions in my opinion should be determined when the GM writes the post because he's the one actually writing about us performing our actions and what consequences or results they have.
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Xantalos

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #138 on: October 27, 2013, 11:00:28 pm »

Oh hey look another Godhood game.
I'll be watching this with interest.
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Caesar

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #139 on: October 28, 2013, 03:14:00 pm »

I'll have to read through this debate and all the posts again before I can argument in favor of either position.
I'll have to get back on it tomorrow after college. Maybe I'll restart writing.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 05:48:36 pm by Caesar »
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Caesar

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #140 on: October 29, 2013, 01:19:51 pm »

Personally, I consider post order to be like chess: if your finger isn't on the chess piece (If you have finished your post), then the chess piece is moved. Though, we should probably wait until Caesar gives the lowdown.

So far, I've always run the Godhood series by this principle. Once someone wrote something, it was done. There was no going back (exceptions are possible, of course, like if the act in question was clearly a violation of one of the rules or beyond the power of that particular deity) and the next post could, indeed, be a reaction on the previous. Like all rules of the game this too may be reconsidered. The 'rules' are there to make the game fun (and easier to keep going).

Yeah but what's stopping me from now adding on an additional action to counter yours. And then you adding another action to counter mine...

I am. If a thing like that would occur, I would step in. After all, I take ultimate control of the mortals in the game for this very reason. They get to make their own decisions. When a mortal is sent two conflicting visions, for instance, he will ultimately choose between them, or act differently. They may even decide not to act at all and a vision can be fruitless. Until a mortal has actually acted on the things that influenced him during a turn, there is nothing to counter.

Imagine a man named Bob. We both get one chance to tell him what we prefer. You tell Bob to take a right turn. I tell Bob to take a left turn. Done. Until he's made a decision, we have nothing else to add. You can not counter the mortal's decisions before he's made them.

And if the last person to post their turn gets to counter the actions of others while they can't in turn do the same, it promotes an attitude where no one actually wants to post first because it punishes them.

This is a strong and central concern here, and I'll get to answering it later in this post.

Anyway, I don't really see why waiting until the update would prevent countering other people's actions but if we are doing things that way, I suppose I'll post my counter - counter action some time tomorrow.

I don't think that you are really sincerely representing your view here, so I'll skip replying directly to this part. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Indeed. Chess matches/games solve this by shouting at the player to get a move on. :P

No, no- That's how you solve problems with slow game moderators and posters.

Sorry, I did a slightly poor job of expressing my view. I didn't really mean that all our actions have to happen at the same time in game so much as I meant that the order of us posting shouldn't influence it. The actual order of our actions in my opinion should be determined when the GM writes the post because he's the one actually writing about us performing our actions and what consequences or results they have.

That's the strong concern I labelled earlier. On one hand, the approach you label is different from how we've run the game until now, and being able to act upon one another's act fits the theme of a pantheon of various gods, who may have conflicting interests, very well. On the other hand, I see that you are trying to take away the concerns with being the first to act, for the good of the game and how well it runs.

Personally, if I imagine a group of people who are each trying to achieve certain distinct goals (which may conflict), I see them thinking ahead. Yes, making the first move might prove to be a disadvantage. But countering someone else's move costs you your resources, and may very well not be worth it. It may even cost you more of your resources to counter their move than it cost them to instigate it in the first place.

I would like to clarify the following things:

- The gods you play are not omniscient. They see where their servants are, and learn of things as their people do. If you know the Black and White series of games, imagine a circle of influence around your main places of worship. You may learn and act outside it, but only if the person or city in question is significant enough for your god to know about them.
- If something happens in distant lands, it takes time for it to reach the 'ears' of the god you play.
- Actions can most certainly be covert (most visions are!), and you can not act on that which of you do not know.
- Sometimes the effects of an act are immediate, and sometimes they take some time. This should be clear by virtue of the act itself. For instance, if a volcano erupts after the actions of one god, everyone should know of it and be able to act on it in the same turn. If a god blesses several people with a blessing they may pass on to their descendents, the other gods would not know until the next turn (unless there is really good reason for them to learn about it right away).
- Acting late is not necessarily acting well. Acting well may be to act covertly, or to predict your opponents. You all know who still has his or her godly juice and who doesn't. You also know who is in peril and who is not. And to solve this problem, I'll be stricter on the deadlines for posts too (unless almost everyone agrees to move a deadline so someone can post). If you postpone for too long, you can't post. You may even not act at all out of fear of the other gods, but that is an act by itself, as you are saving your Essence. Live the character, and respect their tactical decisions.

Now, I would like to get to this actual case. I'll write a new post about that. Feel free to comment on what I just wrote. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I write like I'm high on crack and I make zero sense.

I do, at the very least, want to find a fair solution and principle to keep acting on for the rest of the game.
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Caesar

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #141 on: October 29, 2013, 02:22:08 pm »

We have the following situation;

- First to act
Spoiler: gman8181 as Ode (click to show/hide)

- Second to act

gman8181 claims that Azthor's actions were out of line and that he powergamed. This sparked a situation where gman8181 would like to respond, but can't given the lack of Essence and time (since the turn is technically over). I'll go by each of Azthor's acts in turn, just to clarify whether they were justified from a meta-gaming perspective.

Spoiler: Act 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Observation (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Act 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Observation (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Act 3 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Observation (click to show/hide)

I would like to give Azthor time to rewrite his post, since I do not think that he was deliberately meta-gaming, and the unclarity might very well be blamed on me, or on the general situation. The 'Act 3' I labelled was perfectly alright, and 'Act 2' should certainly be rewritten. The first act I leave up to Azthor, since I trust his judgment of the situation, as well as for him to act fairly.

Of course, you may all feel free to disagree with me, especially if you think you have a better solution for the conflict.
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Azthor

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #142 on: October 29, 2013, 02:49:34 pm »

Act I: Indeed, as mentioned by PM when checking the cost of my actions, the Archspawn would have acted differently were he not aware of Ode, or at least a deity related to the Astineii, attempting to influence Malbran.
- Galadrin would have appeared before Malbran, regardless, for that was an stated intent, and in a sense, promise, from the last turn.
- The Archspawn would not, however, have released a plague upon the Astineii at that time if unaware of Ode's attempts at influencing Malbran.

Act 2:
- I originally believed myself able to tell, to a lesser or greater degree, that a third, and divine, party had been meddling with Malbran. If it is holds that the Archspawn is neither able to tell that Malbran received a vision from Ode, nor that Ode worked his influence in Galadries at all, and Malbran does not mention the visions when approached by Galadrin, then, as per my commentary on Act I, the Archspawn does not let loose the plague of undeath upon the Astineii, nor is Malbran ordered to move upon them.
- If, however, aware in any way or fashion of Ode's attempts, or led to heavily suspect said attempts through his interactions with Malbran, then Act I follows as written.

Act 3:
- Nothing to add there, other than the apprentice's widespread fame, that the battle took place in the aptly named Archspawn's Abode ought to be reason enough.

Given your statements as to covert visions, then the only possibilities in which the Archspawn does act are:
- if Malbran lets the attempt slip  in conversation.
- if actions deep within a deity's dominion can be be felt and traced to the actor.

Note: though Malbran wears the Crown, and it does influence him, it was never intended to allow me to peek into his thoughts, so Malbran would have to outwardly expose he was influenced. I reckon that he'd either believe the visions to have come from Galadrin, or, should he identify the source as someone other than Galadrin, become alarmed. It is, however, ultimately up to you. If neither of the above take place, I will have Acts I & 2 changed within the hour.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 02:57:13 pm by Azthor »
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Caesar

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #143 on: October 29, 2013, 04:00:45 pm »

You don't have to write an entire new act within the hour or rush it. Given the circumstances, I'd like to give you the time you need rather than a quick hurry to finish. That is- Unless you already had something in mind or written. I do enjoy reading what you write.

I do wonder- Even if Malbran told Galadrin about his vision, would the Archspawn really assume that Ode was behind it?
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Azthor

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #144 on: October 29, 2013, 04:35:36 pm »

You don't have to write an entire new act within the hour or rush it. Given the circumstances, I'd like to give you the time you need rather than a quick hurry to finish. That is- Unless you already had something in mind or written. I do enjoy reading what you write.

I do wonder- Even if Malbran told Galadrin about his vision, would the Archspawn really assume that Ode was behind it?

I do suppose it'd come down to how much the Archspawn knows about Ode, and how much Malbran reveals. Ode does, after all, have a rather peculiar behaviour amongst the divine. Alternatively, the Archspawn might act against someone altogether uninvolved if it is accidentally implied by Malbran. Either way, though I am in a bit of a hurry right now and will have to go back on my 'within the hour',  I already do know what to write if Malbran does not mention the visions, as I had lost a half-completed post a while back, before the topic of Ode's intervention even came up.
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Caesar

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #145 on: October 29, 2013, 06:20:02 pm »

Alright, then. Take your time. I'll move the update date to this Sunday (but then I really, really want to get it done and get back to the bi-weekly schedule). I'll re-clarify our divine rule-book too, then.

I'm looking forward to reading what you'll come up with.
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gman8181

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #146 on: October 29, 2013, 06:41:16 pm »

Just clarifying, it wasn't my intention to accuse Azthor of powergaming. I was mostly just confused as to how he could act against something that I thought was still unperformed. I incorrectly assumed actions would take until the end of the turn to occur and that reactions could thus not come about until then. The internal reasoning for that was most of what I already posted along with me thinking that if I didn't know the results of my actions yet, then others wouldn't know about it. My fault for not looking more closely at older godhood games; sincere apologies.

There's nothing wrong with your reasoning for the way you want to run the game. If it works then it works. As mentioned before, I am biased towards my way but I can appreciate your way as well and it is your game :P. Anyway, good to know about the discreet acts for the future.

Also, just out of curiosity in regards to Azthor's previous actions; how exactly would you go about implementing him trying to frame my character for the undead plague? He didn't seem to specify how he'd go about doing it, just that Ode would be allegedly responsible? (I assumed either fliers being spread across the countryside or all the undead wearing "Team Ode" t-shirts) Seriously though, I'm just curious how that type of act would be treated.
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Azthor

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2013, 05:04:24 am »

It is not that the Archspawn would act as to have Ode's followers directly believe Ode was behind the plague, but that Galadrin's followers, highly devout, would be had believe Ode was behind it. How the Astineii would react to the charade would, in all likelihood, depend on its outcome. I have heavily implied the means through which the Astineii might have come to believe the framing, should the Galadrians have prevailed, though I leave them for you to discover.
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gman8181

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2013, 03:03:12 pm »

Ah, that clarifies things well, thanks. I was under the impression you were directly trying to get Ode's followers to blame him for the plague.
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Ghazkull

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Re: Godhood VIII: Quills and Mythology - OOC Thread
« Reply #149 on: October 31, 2013, 01:00:46 pm »

just wanted to peek in an apologize for my inactivity. my internet is still down and thanks to a fucked up service provider to lazy to get shit done it will take a while longer. In the best case scenario i'll have internet as soon as saturday, worst case.....muuuuch laater.
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