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[Imp]

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

@Imp: I'm saying that if you were a scum, it makes a lot of sense for you to be the one saying that all is lost for town.[/quote]

Ok, Squill.  I'm going to ask you to put yourself in the situation I was in as the end of D3 approached.  I'm going to use the words 'pretend I am Town' and 'pretend I am Scum' to discuss this situation out of respect for everyone else's viewpoint - those who are Town besides myself have to pretend.

First pretend I am Town.  I have watched the days pass.  No player besides Rolepgeek has voted.  At all.  Or even said they might vote.  There's minimal conversation - Tiruin's talked about having extreme real life upset issues and complications on other threads, she's off the forum and who knows if she can come back when.  I'm not going to get anywhere with Rolepgeek - not only do I think he's the clearest Scum suspect, but he is so relentlessly hostile to me that I don't believe I -can- communicate with him.  bsnott has not appeared for days despite the replacement announcement.  You yourself say you first didn't notice the thread, say you'll be back after school, but don't because of Halloween, and come back 18 hours before the end of the day, not to place a vote (that's fine because you'll be placing an extension, otherwise... what are you doing 18 hours before lylo and not extending?), nor to place an extension (...) but to place questions.  Without.  The extension.  Or a vote.  I answer you fast as I can, but no, you are gone again.  The hours pass, the day nears end.  I, as a Town player - I have no way to save Town under those circumstances.  That it's my death that cinches the game for the Scum, that's meaningless to me.  We are going to lose, and I can do -nothing- about it - and there are two other Town players in the game, who are also not doing anything about it.  I hope you can feel that situation.

Now lets pretend that I'm Scum.  There are very few differences, none of them outwards.  Inwardly, I know it's not my team that loses now - just my death - and we have whatever chance of winning that my partner can pull off.  With the roleblocker gone, the night kill will happen.  The game returns to Lylo on D4, two town and my partner.  These are not desperate odds.  Now, I can try to fake the 'Town me's' reaction.  That's the recommended strategy for Scum - act as Town as you can.  But it is said to be hard to do.  Far harder than being Town.

If I am Scum, I have been Scum all game.  Every reaction I've shown has been a lie.  My every action, especially if it seems genuinely Town, has been carefully corrected, adjusted, tuned and fixed to hide that it's not really what I think, not really what I believe, not really what I feel.  And what I really was feeling then, as Scum, would have been self preservation - not the loss of the game.  I'm going to tell you now, though you have not asked - I would rather win than be alive in play.  I have ego and pride, but remarkably little self preservation - unless my death also means I lose (irl, it does.  In this game - not always... in fact, not even often, if the team can win without me).

If I am Town, I am free of that.  Free to be wrong where I'm really wrong, to take risks where they make sense to me.  I don't have to worry about who sees 'what I'm really doing', I can just play and try to find the players who are lying in their play.

We're into extension time during lylo.  We can extend forever if we want - we can extend until Tiruin comes back too, until we hear from her whatever she wants to say, whatever we want to ask her.

But it's time to start to decide, really, who the scummiest player is if you haven't yet.  Take your time, if you feel you must for now, to avoid giving things away, hold your suspicions to yourself for fear that Scum will latch onto them and twist them, then do so.  I will tell you that in skilled games, that is seen as Scummy and as helping Scum - they already know who's town and who's not.  But I understand, and I'm not going to call you on it - if you are Scum, I believe there will be enough other clues to give you away.

But if you are Town and you want Town to win, I recommend you figure out how you're going to figure out who is the Scummiest player left.  Our group consensus choice of the scummiest player is likely to be a Scum.  Beware players who cannot give a ranked list, for Scum thinks differently than Town, and they do not NEED to make a list of Scummiest Townies, for them the constant real challenge is 'how do I hide', not 'who is playing with the most deceit and hiding what they really feel and think'.

[Squill]

First pretend I am Town.  I have watched the days pass.  No player besides Rolepgeek has voted.  At all.  Or even said they might vote.  There's minimal conversation - Tiruin's talked about having extreme real life upset issues and complications on other threads, she's off the forum and who knows if she can come back when.  I'm not going to get anywhere with Rolepgeek - not only do I think he's the clearest Scum suspect, but he is so relentlessly hostile to me that I don't believe I -can- communicate with him.  bsnott has not appeared for days despite the replacement announcement.  You yourself say you first didn't notice the thread, say you'll be back after school, but don't because of Halloween, and come back 18 hours before the end of the day, not to place a vote (that's fine because you'll be placing an extension, otherwise... what are you doing 18 hours before lylo and not extending?), nor to place an extension (...) but to place questions.  Without.  The extension.  Or a vote.  I answer you fast as I can, but no, you are gone again.  The hours pass, the day nears end.  I, as a Town player - I have no way to save Town under those circumstances.  That it's my death that cinches the game for the Scum, that's meaningless to me.  We are going to lose, and I can do -nothing- about it - and there are two other Town players in the game, who are also not doing anything about it.  I hope you can feel that situation.

@Imp: What I am saying is that, at no point in the game does typing long-winded paragraphs about how doomed town is actually help town. It can in fact, hinder town, as it seems likely to me that the more you tell someone that they have no chance of success, the less likely it is that they'll actually try. To me, it seems like it is not a stretch to say that it is indeed possible that your words are carefully tailored to cripple town, but not make you suspect if it fails.

I'm not going to get anywhere with Rolepgeek - not only do I think he's the clearest Scum suspect, but he is so relentlessly hostile to me that I don't believe I -can- communicate with him.

As for Rolepgeek, he is my second choice for scum. He'd be my first, but I really don't have any sort of evidence against him, just a gut reaction, likely stemming to the fact that he has consistently been hostile towards any and all who communicate with him.

I can't get a good read on Tiruin. Tiruin is my third choice simply because of Deathsword's behavior. While Tiruin's posts haven't seemed excessively scummy, they also seem a lot more level headed and probably more experienced than Deathsword.

And finally, there is bsnott. I had little on Mr. Zero, and bsnott hasn't posted much yet. While bsnott doesn't seem excessively town, he also doesn't seem too scummy. This bothers me, and I hope he posts more.

[bsnott]

@Squill
There really isn't much for me to post right now, as far as I can tell. I'm a complete newb to this game, like I've said before, and I don't know what kind of questions I should be asking right now. Rolepgeek still hasn't replied to me.

[Imp]

@Squill
There really isn't much for me to post right now, as far as I can tell. I'm a complete newb to this game, like I've said before, and I don't know what kind of questions I should be asking right now. Rolepgeek still hasn't replied to me.

Good morning.  How willing are you to read the thread?  With the understanding that you skim over parts, possibly noting them to review later if you feel the need.  It's great if you're willing to read as much of it as you think you need to, to understand how the game has gone from your own viewpoint.

As you read, it is possible/likely that you will find things that you want to ask about.

[Imp]

@Imp: What I am saying is that, at no point in the game does typing long-winded paragraphs about how doomed town is actually help town. It can in fact, hinder town, as it seems likely to me that the more you tell someone that they have no chance of success, the less likely it is that they'll actually try. To me, it seems like it is not a stretch to say that it is indeed possible that your words are carefully tailored to cripple town, but not make you suspect if it fails.

Squill, to confirm, you are saying that you are sure enough of that I am Scum to select me as your vote in Lylo?  You ask no questions; what you have said is the reason you view me as most likely scum, and you are satisfied as is with your top Scum pick?

[Tiruin]

Rolepgeek. Squill.

Yeah, let's balance this.

More coming up.

PFP - few hours back. Holiday work. Family stuffs. Lack of candy

Extend.

[Imp]

I have realized something.  I messed up about how many extend votes were needed, but that doesn't actually change that bsnott is proven to be Town.

0 to extend, 2 needed

Only two extends are needed to extend at this point, if no one shortens.  I made a mistake in understanding what I read when I believed we needed 3 extend votes to get an extension.

I'm first going to explain how I made the mistake, because deciding if I believed me would be crucial for me to decide if it was believable, if someone else had made this claim.

The Mod post opening Lylo did not include a vote list or a shorten/lengthen count.  The first extend list shown this day

The robots awoke to a sad sight. Superblackcat's body was torn apart. A mass of wires protruded from his shell. This must be the work of evil mal-bots!

ZOM-B scans his remains. Turns out he was a janitor robot. The robots are more sad because now they have to clean up after themselves and robots aren't very good at that.

Everyone strengthens their resolve. They are determined to eliminate the threat.


superblackcat has been lynched! He was a town jailkeeper


bsnott has replaced Mr.Zero


Day 3 will end Friday November 1st at 9PM PST

As of right now, there are NO MOD EDITS on this post (which are allowed, only mods are allowed to edit their posts).  This is proof that the day opened without a count at 0 status showing we needed 2 to extend.

1 to extend, 2 needed

When the mod first made a post showing the count, Rolepgeek had already asked for an extend.  I saw this as we have one, needed 2 more.  That's not what it said.  What I mostly noticed was that there was no shorten count.  I asked about that here.  The mod edited his post two minutes after that question, to put the shorten count in.

(bsnott, that's why we can't edit our own posts, they are a permanent record of things - however the mod IS allowed to edit.  If you ever need to fix something or add something, you make a second post saying what you're doing and do it there.  If anyone gets confused and tries to use the old wrong post, you notice and point out the correction.)

When I looked today and saw Tiruin's request for an extend, I also scanned back and noticed the number needed to extend had shrunk from three to two.  Then I realized that I was wrong about that.

For anyone saying 'Imp, you've been looking at this all game and you have to know by now how to read it' - and that's what I would first challenge - I say 'But I haven't seen it all game.'  The style of counts for extends and shortens has changed during play.  It started the way it is now - but when Tiruin started doing mod posts on D2, Zombie adopted her method of extend counts for the rest of that D.

Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

I have shown earlier in play that I'm a detail orientated player who misses little - I've caught mistakes and asked for their corrections, and I usually see things and understand them correctly.  It's hard to believe me because of this, but I am also a player who really, really needs consistency in rules.  I've talked about that before this post too. 

So that's my proof that I didn't 'set this up' - but even if I did use it as an intentional gambit (which I have to say, now that I've thought it through - I would have used it on purpose to test bsnott, because he didn't lock in a Scum win like Scum should have, instead he acted very reasonably and believably as a newbie might) I reason that bsnott is proven to be Town - all that matters is that he took action to prevent a certain Scum win when he could have taken action or inaction to create a Scum victory.

Spoiler: proof bsnott and I cannot both be Scum, because if we were, Scum would have won last night (click to show/hide)

If he and I are both Scum, that's great motive for me to try and prove him Town - but a total waste of time if true.  This is how the game would have ended last night, if I and bsnott were both Scum - and it would have been a locked down win.

Shorten votes cancel out extend votes, 1 for 1 basis.

We had 90 minutes to end of game.  I remove my extend request (total now 1) - or even switch it to shorten (total now 0).  Completely preventing any chance for an extend.  bsnott and I both vote for any Town.  Squill logs in - the best he could do is say 'extend', but a shorten from either bsnott or myself cancels it.  Game ends without  extend passing - with at best 2 scum votes on any 1 townie, and Squill adding his vote to rolepgeek's - a tie.  Scum victory.  If Squill didn't vote, mislynch and Scum victory.

This does not prove that I a not Scum - but it is proof that bsnott and I together cannot be Scum.

Even though I was wrong about how many we needed to extend - bsnott still is confirmed Town to me, and he did it with that extend request.  He could have said 'shorten', removing the second needed extend vote to pass.  He could have left his vote on me or not - Scum victory either way.  He did what he did -before- Squill posted.  bsnott's actions are incompatible with achieving a Scum win at the point in time where that victory was possible - bsnott is not Scum.

In fact, because of bsnott's extend votes - we now had a total of 3 extend votes, but only needed 2.  If Squill is Scum, come to be around at the end of D, to vote shorten to knock us from 2 votes to 1 and let the day end (that would have been a Scum victory, no matter how Squill voted - or if Rolepgeek is Scum too and bsnott joined me in that vote, then Squill votes for me, returning to the tie and Scum victory) - well even then the day would have extended, so there's no reason to vote to shorten, no reason to prove Squill is Scum.

This doesn't prove Squill is Scum.  But it further supports that bsnott is confirmed Town and explains why no shorten shenanigans were seen.

I'ma add - I view any attempt to use a shorten vote at this point to be proof of Scummitude, until we 5 or as many of that 5 as are willing to talk have had time to catch up, get satisfied, and get at least 3 of us to agree that it's time to shorten because votes are in all the right places to give Town the best chance its got.  And I'll add my extend too.

[bsnott]

Alright. I've pissed myself off enough with procrastinating and lurking that I'm gonna get over my irrational fear of my IPad and post something for fuck's sake.

First, let's respond to questions. Then, I can pick apart Imp at my leisure. Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this, I'll be looking through all the posts as I sweep for questions at me, and seeing who looks scummy.

@Rolepgeek So you were going to pick Imp apart purely for annoying you? Is there something wrong with trying to get answers?

[bsnott]

@Rolepgeek
Answer the question please.

[Rolepgeek]

Dude. It was like six hours between asking the question and demanding an answer. It is not a good time for me to answer the questions in this thread right now. But if you need an answer, I was not going to pick him apart for annoying me. I was going to pick him apart anyway, and was motivated to do so(instead of lurk more because I had no motivation) and focus on him primarily because he was annoying me at the time. There is nothing wrong with trying to get answers, but there can be something wrong with the method you go about it.

[zombie urist]

Day extended to Thursday November 7th 9PM PST

Imp - Pufferfish, squill
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - Imp, Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Pufferfish has replaced Rolepgeek

[Imp]

Welcome in, Pufferfish.

You are in an interesting spot, if only because this game is at an interesting point.  I am going to unvote for now.

Please do not type shorten in bold - we have two other recent replacements, one with some real life issues that recently caused a lot of distress, people including yourself need a chance to get settled in and caught up.  Otherwise, take your time and ask any questions you have.


What's your Mafia experience like, and experience with games similar to Mafia?

How willing are you to read this thread  so you understand what's happened before the point you joined?

[Imp]

Bsnott, how goes your readthrough and catching up on what's already happened?

Tiruin, hope you are alright.  Glad you're keeping in touch.

Squill, anything you want to talk about?

[Gentlefish]

Oh boy, I -am- in an interesting spot.

To catch up, I see you've got a good re-cap post. So I can see what I've been up to.

I've played a game similar in a MUD - much shorter, but took an hour or two each play through. Most people are innocents. one or two, depending on group size, are murderers, and there's one cop. Voting was open, debate was open, and actions were secret. So pretty similar.

Seems like I'm coming in on the tail end of a game, too - this should be quite interesting. You put up a lot of good arguments, Imp. The others have, too.

But I'll see what I believe after I read more.

[Gentlefish]

Currently, I'll with-hold any player votes but I will ask to extend.

I don't know how far we are into the day but I might need more than the weekend to catch up.

Imp:

Since you're the most vocal recently, I've been able to read your words a lot more and you sound..... Not so suspicious. This late in the game anyway.