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[kero42]

LW, that's not a good idea. They'll start to breed, and when we want to seriously colonize Mars in a 100 years, it'll be overrun with the offspring of reality TV stars.

That could be the main selling point of living on mars. "Snooki Hunting(TM)" anyone? 

EDIT: (This of course works on the assumption that they have degraded into animalistic monsters that can no longer be recognized as humans. If the're  still civilized, then it could be a bit morally ambiguous.)

[Loud Whispers]

EDIT: (This of course works on the assumption that they have degraded into animalistic monsters that can no longer be recognized as humans.)

We crossed that event horizon a long time ago.

[Eagleon]

So I guess my question is, if 100,000 people want to go to Mars as a one-way trip to a reality show that might not even make ratings, why aren't we (including myself here - full disclosure, this is exactly what I'm trying to work towards) starting an organization that can do it safely and profitably for the people that really want to do this? Talking about developing microgravity/lunar gravity remote extraction and manufacturing first to bring down the amount of material being sent up, fund whatever we would need to send up with lots of rare earths and precious metals, and set up a supply chain that can't be held hostage by Mars One, MTV, SpaceX, FAA regulations, etc.

I find it very strange that these people are completely willing to die cold, alone, and suffocating at the mercy of the Netherland's space program, but are unwilling to go through 2-6 years of school to take part in the research that could save them. The ones most in need of a frontier - the mentally ill, the impoverished, the persecuted - are the ones most likely to be left behind with the missions that are being proposed right now, so I'd love to see some of that desperation put to work on a plan hinging on more than "Wow! Space! Interpersonal conflict! Sex in zero-G! Half a million dollars per ticket!"

[10ebbor10]

Don't think that's going to work. Moon doesn't have much rare metals, or normal metals for that matter. It's mainly boring rock. He-3 isn't worth anything yet. Besides, setting up a lunar mining and construction operation costs quite a lot. A lot more than what we're going to get.

Don't know why you would want to send  "- the mentally ill, the impoverished, the persecuted - " into space. Space isn't that cost effective yet that we can afford it. Though, there's been some talk about sending elderly on long voyages, because they'd die before the worst effects come along.
.

[Fniff]

How about the Australian method instead? We get a bunch of convicted felons, put them on a rocket, send em out to space. If they die, we win! If they make a functioning colony, we win! Plus, it'd be a much better reality show. Come on, give up human empathy, it's not going to get us into space.

[andrea]

that would be the plot of "The Moon is an harsh mistress", by Heinlein

[Fniff]

Really? Huh. I imagine it goes horribly, horribly wrong, right?

[Eagleon]

Don't think that's going to work. Moon doesn't have much rare metals, or normal metals for that matter. It's mainly boring rock. He-3 isn't worth anything yet. Besides, setting up a lunar mining and construction operation costs quite a lot. A lot more than what we're going to get.

Don't know why you would want to send  "- the mentally ill, the impoverished, the persecuted - " into space. Space isn't that cost effective yet that we can afford it. Though, there's been some talk about sending elderly on long voyages, because they'd die before the worst effects come along.
.

1 - We know there's rare-earths on the moon, from the dust we've analyzed we think there's quite a bit. In other words, some of those craters have to be from the asteroids we'd like to mine. It's a nice platform to test space elevator systems on. It also presents a lot of raw materials for larger constructions. If, for instance, a design goal doesn't require reentry, basalt is a perfectly suitable material for the structural elements of a spacecraft or probe. Basalt is also fine, even ideal as a target for a solar concentrator, which is one solution for power generation, which also happens to fit nicely together with stirling engines and flywheels for easily manufacturable ion propulsion from a variety of materials - at least that's what I'm going on for now. It definitely presents different difficulties than mining a NEO, but it has the advantage of being rather centralized, requiring already known technology to navigate and explore, and it isn't spinning, volatile, or requiring a huge investment in prospecting and analysis.

2 - And because I'm at least two of those, if not all three. A bipolar pansexual janitor does not stand much chance as it is, but I happen to like the idea of going out in a confined, smelly space suit to repair solar facilities in the dead of night during a dust storm. It has a certain romantic element that I think would be lost with the desk-jockeys pulling the weight of the work with SpaceX's proposal.

The point is not that anyone would -want- to send them, the point is that a large number of them would probably like to go, if they stand a reasonable chance of survival. Usable research can be done by practically anyone, given a little training, the right equipment, and a healthy serving of coordination. I'm working on an informatics degree to make research software that will help with that. I also think that a business controlling a colony entirely dependent on supplies from Earth is an instant recipe for disaster. Indentured service followed by technical problems that can only be solved by further investment from a company that might go belly up a year after launch doesn't seem like a solid business plan. So looked at alongside that, a non-profit controlled by the lower-class moonlighting as researchers doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.

[ChairmanPoo]

Cydonia or bust!

[gimlet]

I was just looking for a nice gift for the in-laws - a vacation on lovely Venus! (cue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons)...

[Itnetlolor]

Cydonia or bust!

They best be knights. I already got a good theme song for them.

[itisnotlogical]

How about the Australian method instead? We get a bunch of convicted felons, put them on a rocket, send em out to space. If they die, we win! If they make a functioning colony, we win! Plus, it'd be a much better reality show. Come on, give up human empathy, it's not going to get us into space.

I think that's how the Terrans happened in Starcraft. Didn't turn out much too well for anybody in that situation.

[Loud Whispers]

Cydonia or bust!

They best be knights. I already got a good theme song for them.

Called it straight from my brain, I don't even need to click on the link to know WE WILL BE VICTORIOUS

[Frumple]

I think that's how the Terrans happened in Starcraft. Didn't turn out much too well for anybody in that situation.

Actually, I think that was going fairly alright as space futures go, right up until the Xel'Naga's double-whammy colossal cock-up showed up. I don't recall if it was actually everyone that descended/was exiled criminals, though. Think it was mostly it was just (some of) the marines that were brainwashed cons. Terrans weren't doing too bad, though, all things considered.

[10ebbor10]

1 - We know there's rare-earths on the moon, from the dust we've analyzed we think there's quite a bit. In other words, some of those craters have to be from the asteroids we'd like to mine. It's a nice platform to test space elevator systems on. It also presents a lot of raw materials for larger constructions. If, for instance, a design goal doesn't require reentry, basalt is a perfectly suitable material for the structural elements of a spacecraft or probe. Basalt is also fine, even ideal as a target for a solar concentrator, which is one solution for power generation, which also happens to fit nicely together with stirling engines and flywheels for easily manufacturable ion propulsion from a variety of materials - at least that's what I'm going on for now. It definitely presents different difficulties than mining a NEO, but it has the advantage of being rather centralized, requiring already known technology to navigate and explore, and it isn't spinning, volatile, or requiring a huge investment in prospecting and analysis.

Ok, fair, the moon does have rare Earths, but in far smaller concentrations than any of earth's mines. (And concentrations on earth are already so low that mining them isn't economically viable without there being another ore(like thorium) present. Mining and refining materials on the moon is far harder than mining on Earth. And well, Ion propulsion is a rather complicated, and power hungry technology. Not certain if you can do it on the moon)

2 - And because I'm at least two of those, if not all three. A bipolar pansexual janitor does not stand much chance as it is, but I happen to like the idea of going out in a confined, smelly space suit to repair solar facilities in the dead of night during a dust storm. It has a certain romantic element that I think would be lost with the desk-jockeys pulling the weight of the work with SpaceX's proposal.

And you'd be death in minutes. Both lunar and Martian nights are fairly cold, after all. Space suits ain't going to help. Not that you can do anything useful against a dust storms. Brushing dust of a solar panel when it's cloudy is rather bad.

The point is not that anyone would -want- to send them, the point is that a large number of them would probably like to go, if they stand a reasonable chance of survival. Usable research can be done by practically anyone, given a little training, the right equipment, and a healthy serving of coordination. I'm working on an informatics degree to make research software that will help with that. I also think that a business controlling a colony entirely dependent on supplies from Earth is an instant recipe for disaster. Indentured service followed by technical problems that can only be solved by further investment from a company that might go belly up a year after launch doesn't seem like a solid business plan. So looked at alongside that, a non-profit controlled by the lower-class moonlighting as researchers doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.

There're 6 7 billion people on this planet. You're always going to find enough people to go if you bother to look for them. No reason to pick up extra liabilities.

And yes, the MarsOne program is liable for disaster. SpaceX is much more realistic, aiming for a mainly self-sufficient Mars base. Your plan won't get the funds to start the first stage. Maybe in 50 years, but know you don't have the technology, nor the funds.


There's also international space Law. Don't think you're allowed to mine the moon.