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[Afghani84]

I am looking for a way that does not involve cats. The only two things that I could think of didn't work out:

1) to create a room with a door on "keep tightly closed" and store all bones, shells, horns etc. in there. apparently that does not help because when I checked after a while, vermin somehow got in and all my stuff was gone.

2) to store it in barrels/pots or bins but it seems that refuse cannot be stored in containers. is that correct?

any other idea what can be done against these little thieves?

EDIT:
i did some own testing with two separate refuse piles. both were in rooms with tightly closed doors. the only difference was that one of the rooms had 4 cats in it to kill vermin as soon as it spawns. the refuse in the room w/o cats disappeared quickly once vermin spawned while all the goods remained in the other one over the same timespan, thus

1) vermin can randomly spawn anywhere in your fortress. doors will hold them back but since they can spawn right on top of your stockpile, their usefulness is limited.

2) vermin seem to "steal" refuse. it seems to take roughly 3-7 days for one stack of items to disappear from the stockpile (regardless of stack size)

3) wear does not seem to have an effect or if it does and the vermin lower it, it is not observable

i might extend this by testing stockpiles on constructed floors as well. not sure when I will have time for it. if anyone wants to give it a go, feel free to do so!
oh...and I am still hoping that someone knows whether storing refuse in barrels/bins is impossible or not.

[TruePikachu]

You mean food? Food can only be protected by cats in an unmodded game. In fact, vermin itself can only be killed by cats. One moment while I check the raws for the tag...


[HUNTS_VERMIN] is the tag.

EDIT: And apparently you meant refuse as in refuse. I just store it outside, where most of my population won't go. There is no way to prevent vermin from getting there, given that it spontanously spawns, rather than needing to travel there.

Vermin are not the cause of bones and shells disappearing, I believe; it is rather the fact that anything in a refuse-enabled stockpile will wear away over time. I once got some x Log x because I experimented with merging piles...

[Afghani84]

thanks for the quick answer! I usually have two refuse piles: one outside for corpses and body parts and one inside with all the stuff that can be used for crafting. the question is whether the one inside can be built in a way that vermin don't get there (if they are the cause of items diappearing).

Vermin are not the cause of bones and shells disappearing, I believe; it is rather the fact that anything in a refuse-enabled stockpile will wear away over time.

I've read the exact opposite somewhere in the forums. is there proof for either version?

[wierd]

IIRC, vermin will also be attracted to refuse, like rotting skins that you didn't get tanned fast enough.

Cats don't need to eat. Put 1 cat on an individual pen/pasture, on top of each individual cell of the stockpile. Vermin won't stand a chance.

Eg, you have a 10x10 stockpile, put 100 pen/pasture zones, and assign 1 cat to each. That will put 1 cat on each and every tile of the stockpile, and should minimize fighting between the cats. (Since they aren't all in one big pen!) The vermin will spawn right underneath the cat, and be killed instantly.

Probably horrible for FPS though, and catsplosion risk is absurdly high.

[Malekit]

1st post ^^

ok about ur post: i don't know much aboot vermin spawn but they have ze tendency to expontaneusly appear at food & refuse items, not necessarily stockpiles. If not try putting some food inside a sealed room, not on a stockpile, and forbid it, check it later.

@TruePikachu: aboot ur [x Log x] item, if u give some time to check ze DFwiki, after 10 bites from a vermin any item gets it quality lowered by -1

Normal => x *** x => xX *** Xx => Destroyed

[vjek]

From what I've seen, vermin won't touch stockpiles built on top of constructed floors.  So, try that, see if it helps.

[ddonohu2]

Falcons.

I had to pasture falcons in the refuse area of one fort due to a foot rotting syndrome problem killing my cats. They'll kill vermin (or at least they did).

[Drazinononda]

Vermin are not the cause of bones and shells disappearing, I believe; it is rather the fact that anything in a refuse-enabled stockpile will wear away over time.

I've read the exact opposite somewhere in the forums. is there proof for either version?

@TruePikachu: aboot ur [x Log x] item, if u give some time to check ze DFwiki, after 10 bites from a vermin any item gets it quality lowered by -1

Normal => x *** x => xX *** Xx => Destroyed

Easy ways to test these:

1) Place a stockpile under some random, normally-nondeteriorating items (say, stone furniture) and in the settings Enable refuse, but Block all of it. It will still count as a "Refuse" stockpile but nothing should be brought into it, leaving your control group alone in its testing area. For extra surety, forbid the test items. This will test whether Refuse stockpiles are themselves to blame for disappearing/degrading items.

2) Place two stockpiles in a checkerboard pattern, with stockpile A (checkerboard "black" squares) being a normally non-degrading item or selection (again, furniture or weapons are good options) and stockpile B being refuse or rot-able materials (food, corpses, body parts, etc.). Vermin will appear on and around the refuse, but spend roughly equal amounts of time on the furniture/whatnot. This will test whether vermin are responsible for disappearing/degrading items.

From my extensive experience in Fort mode, though, I can say with a great deal of certainty that refuse stockpiles definitely do cause degradation of items, and vermin definitely do not (for "durable" items like finished goods, furniture, weapons and armor, etc.).

[Larix]

If you have a fast turnaround of usable 'refuse' - skins are tanned and hair spun immediately after butchering, all the bone parts get used up by the crafter in a few weeks at most - you can simply

- forbid craftable refuse on the refuse pile.

Bones and the like will stack up in the butcher's shop, but as of .34.11 the resultant clutter is reasonable, the butcher's shop will only start to clutter when you have ~30 skulls and bone stacks sitting in there. More importantly, craftable bones and shells _don't wear away_ while in the workshop.

In addition, forbidding craft materials on the refuse pile means you can get along with a much smaller refuse pile, and it stops haulers from jumping into action and dragging fresh raw hide, wool, hair and bones from workshops to the refuse pile, haul-blocking 'tan hide', 'spin thread' and various 'craft bone xxx' jobs.

[thegoatgod_pan]

You only need 1-2 cats per large stockpile, they are efficient litle predators.

Eg, you have a 10x10 stockpile, put 100 pen/pasture zones, and assign 1 cat to each. That will put 1 cat on each and every tile of the stockpile, and should minimize fighting between the cats. (Since they aren't all in one big pen!) The vermin will spawn right underneath the cat, and be killed instantly.

Probably horrible for FPS though, and catsplosion risk is absurdly high.

jesus christ man! do you really do this?! Im sure it works, but the sheer effort involved is staggering. Just flooding everything with magma, and burninating all the vermin would be a breeze in comparison

[Afghani84]

thanks for all the answers guys! 
i updated the initial post  that might be interesting to some, so check it out!

[wierd]

You only need 1-2 cats per large stockpile, they are efficient litle predators.

Eg, you have a 10x10 stockpile, put 100 pen/pasture zones, and assign 1 cat to each. That will put 1 cat on each and every tile of the stockpile, and should minimize fighting between the cats. (Since they aren't all in one big pen!) The vermin will spawn right underneath the cat, and be killed instantly.

Probably horrible for FPS though, and catsplosion risk is absurdly high.

jesus christ man! do you really do this?! Im sure it works, but the sheer effort involved is staggering. Just flooding everything with magma, and burninating all the vermin would be a breeze in comparison

Depends on just how bad the vermin problem is, doesn't it?

*also, don't underestimate the depths of micromanagement I am willing to plumb when sufficiently enraged about something. I cut teeth in the 40d age, and built megalithic structures one block at a time. >: )

[Sutremaine]

Vermin can be killed by cave spider webs or by being shut in a door. I rarely see the former, but in one forc a bone / corpse QSP behind two doors still leaked miasma due to one door sometimes getting blocked by vermin remains and leaving the other to pass miasma whenever a dwarf opened the door to walk through.

Refuse items can also be protected by allowing them to remain in the butchery, though if you're not using the bits up fast enough (or if you're butchering creatures large enough to give cartilage and nervous tissue) you may need to build extra butcheries. Slating the full ones for removal before forbidding their building materials will keep them built while barring any jobs from being created in them.

1) Place a stockpile under some random, normally-nondeteriorating items (say, stone furniture) and in the settings Enable refuse, but Block all of it. It will still count as a "Refuse" stockpile but nothing should be brought into it, leaving your control group alone in its testing area. For extra surety, forbid the test items. This will test whether Refuse stockpiles are themselves to blame for disappearing/degrading items.

I have an observation on this one. In one fort, I dealt with goblin clothing by having a combined clothing / refuse pile that accepted no-quality clothing. It did use bins, and these bins showed no sign of wear even as the clothes inside them disintegrated into nothing.

[Urist Da Vinci]

...

1) Place a stockpile under some random, normally-nondeteriorating items (say, stone furniture) and in the settings Enable refuse, but Block all of it. It will still count as a "Refuse" stockpile but nothing should be brought into it, leaving your control group alone in its testing area. For extra surety, forbid the test items. This will test whether Refuse stockpiles are themselves to blame for disappearing/degrading items.

I have an observation on this one. In one fort, I dealt with goblin clothing by having a combined clothing / refuse pile that accepted no-quality clothing. It did use bins, and these bins showed no sign of wear even as the clothes inside them disintegrated into nothing.

Like above, I was going to mention that people use the "destroying" properties of refuse piles to get rid of excess clothing. Make the clothing workshop only give to a pile which doesn't accept items from anywhere else, whereas all collected clothing is brought to the "destoy" pile. Over time, this ensures that dwarves wear new high-quality clothing made in your fort.

[Drazinononda]

...

1) Place a stockpile under some random, normally-nondeteriorating items (say, stone furniture) and in the settings Enable refuse, but Block all of it. It will still count as a "Refuse" stockpile but nothing should be brought into it, leaving your control group alone in its testing area. For extra surety, forbid the test items. This will test whether Refuse stockpiles are themselves to blame for disappearing/degrading items.

I have an observation on this one. In one fort, I dealt with goblin clothing by having a combined clothing / refuse pile that accepted no-quality clothing. It did use bins, and these bins showed no sign of wear even as the clothes inside them disintegrated into nothing.

Like above, I was going to mention that people use the "destroying" properties of refuse piles to get rid of excess clothing. Make the clothing workshop only give to a pile which doesn't accept items from anywhere else, whereas all collected clothing is brought to the "destoy" pile. Over time, this ensures that dwarves wear new high-quality clothing made in your fort.

So, then, are bins alone immune to the degradation? I've seen hard items (e.g. copper breastplates) deteriorate when left on a refuse stockpile, but honestly I've never once had a bin left on a refuse pile so I've never had occasion to observe a difference.