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Author Topic: Are goblins always so pathetic?  (Read 4120 times)

enolate

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Are goblins always so pathetic?
« on: July 12, 2013, 12:21:42 am »

In my first siege, they came with more units than I had and refused to come in range of my archers. I thought I was screwed. There was a Mexican Standoff for a while with both armies staying out of range. But eventually the goblins sent in some trolls. ONE hammerdwarf almost single-handedly took out all the trolls and then charged up the battlements to taunt. He seemed so confident that I finally decided the standoff had to end at some point. I don't think the goblins tried for a single hit on him before they all started to run. Keep in mind that even after losing the trolls, they still had 35 goblins on mounts. VS one guy. And some of those goblins were supposedly elite.

Is this normal?
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Shadow Creator

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 01:11:11 am »

Curses! An ambush of lashers! Now you will know why you fear the whip!

Goblins are small, poorly equipped, and many have little to no fighting skills apart from the group captains. That being said the elite archers and groups of lashers are the deadly ones. Once you bloody the captain or beat a few goblins a squad will lose morale and break. If you are fully equipped in iron, steel, or candy and have mastered military dwarf protocol the goblins will indeed seem pitiful. There are MANY mods to address this though. The main one for adding bigger and much stronger enemies is fortress defense.

The difficulty of the goblins really depends on the player and, more often than not, luck.

Edit: Also note that dwarves fighting multiple enemies at once can enter a martial trance that make them temporarily badass.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:16:49 am by Shadow Creator »
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enolate

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 01:32:13 am »

It did say he went into a martial trance.

 But still. I would have thought that trolls or cave crocodiles or jabberers all sound pretty intimidating. But they also didn't stand a chance in the siege. Perhaps the goblins made them retreat too. Or maybe they are all cruddy. I don't actually know what a jabberer is after all.


So lashers are badasses, eh? It seems dwarves can equip whips if you can find them. Hmm.
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0cu

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 01:38:35 am »

Yes, lasherdwarves are fun to use.  :D
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Dangerous Beans

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 01:53:31 am »

But still. I would have thought that trolls or cave crocodiles or jabberers all sound pretty intimidating. But they also didn't stand a chance in the siege. Perhaps the goblins made them retreat too. Or maybe they are all cruddy. I don't actually know what a jabberer is after all.

http://dfweb3.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Jabberer
jabberers are basically oversized Moa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moa) but carnivorous.
think a giant ostrich, but nearly as heavy as an elephant. now add a tendency to stand on things and peck them to death with a massive beak (i'm assuming they hunt like the birds in the video linked to from this xkcd: http://xkcd.com/1104/).

edit: since i have nothing else to do: they probably weight around 4-4.5 tons (based off a quick density of flesh and volume calculation. i don't think volume is a useful description of a large-fightless-bird-shaped creature). when you consider that the largest moa were ~250kg and 3.6m tall, my guess is that jabberes, my guess is that jabberers are 5m at the head? their legs would have to be a lot more massive than a moa's.
still that would put their cloaca around 2-3m off the ground.
the largest dinosaur eggs are about 60cm long, and considering an emu egg weighs up to 0.9kg at 13cm, my guess is that a jabberer egg probably weighs on the order of 3.5kg.
so based on my wild guessing, i think a jabberer can kill, or at least concuss, a dwarf by laying an egg on his head  :P
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 02:15:14 am by Dangerous Beans »
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enolate

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 02:03:07 am »

So something like terror birds?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Terror_birds_and_Gastornis_height_comparison.jpg

Then, I can only assume that being associated with goblins makes even badass animals wimps.
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Dangerous Beans

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 02:32:43 am »

So something like terror birds?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Terror_birds_and_Gastornis_height_comparison.jpg

Then, I can only assume that being associated with goblins makes even badass animals wimps.

yeah, like those.

it occurs to me that they might stand more like a theropod, with their neck stretched out horizontally, but that would allow them to have higher hips, so the estimate of 2-3m to the cloaca seems reasonable. i'm wondering if we should be thinking something more like a tyrannosauride (t.rex and related), but with the beak of a terror bird.

still, they would be bloody scary, and i'm in awe of goblins being brave/dumb enough to ride the damn things.
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enolate

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 02:53:46 am »

still, they would be bloody scary, and i'm in awe of goblins being brave/dumb enough to ride the damn things.

I must admit. Had I known those were attacking, I would have let the standoff continue indefinitely.
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kyle902

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 03:24:32 am »

Gen a really long world and hope that a goblin civ trains war cave dragons.

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Matoro

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 03:51:36 am »

Gen a really long world and hope that a goblin civ trains war cave dragons.



Oh god.

At least cave dragons don't breathe fire.
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GrimDark_Majyyks

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 04:00:18 am »

Gen a really long world and hope that a goblin civ trains war cave dragons.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh god.

At least cave dragons don't breathe fire.

Code: [Select]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:MATERIAL_EMISSION]
      [CDI:ADV_NAME:Breath fire]
      [CDI:USAGE_HINT:ATTACK]
      [CDI:BP_REQUIRED:BY_CATEGORY:MOUTH]
      [CDI:FLOW:DRAGONFIRE]
      [CDI:TARGET:C:LINE_OF_SIGHT]
      [CDI:TARGET_RANGE:C:15]
      [CDI:MAX_TARGET_NUMBER:C:1]
      [CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:50]
[FIREIMMUNE_SUPER]

Whoopsiedaisy!
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Button

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 08:26:09 am »

Goblins are set to 'time out' after a little a while and run away. If you waited long enough, that's probably what happened.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 09:48:11 am »

If you really want some fun, find adamantine and get to lower and lower layers of the spire. You'll know when the !!!FUN!!! starts.

Note: Get a good and large military first.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:52:32 am by TheDarkStar »
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Trollhammaren

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 10:51:34 am »

If you remove pet tags from other cave creatures and remove goblins' propensity to use evil creatures, will goblins always bring cave dragons? Also, can they be made to bring regular dragons if you add the same tags to it as cave dragons?

Oaktree

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Re: Are goblins always so pathetic?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 11:00:15 am »

The general run of goblins are pretty much inferior to dwarf military with any sort of decent training and equipment.

- They are generally of middling training (I assume level 1-5 or so)
- They use inferior metal (copper, silver, maybe iron) for weapons
- They do not fully armor and thus leave limbs unarmored that can be easily crippled - even by wooden crossbow bolts
   (This varies since the helm/cap and mail/breastplate mix is different by goblin civ)
- Their morale can be broken to cause them to flee

About their only assets are that lashers and archers in groups can be dangerous.  Mass attacks with weapons that can penetrate/harm through armor will eventually not be blocked.  And once crippled/passed out a dwarf can then quickly be bludgeoned to death.

Elite goblin leaders are a greater threat since they are much more skilled.  The archers can shoot through fortifications and thus are just about the only unit that can hurt placed marksdwarves.  The others have a greater ability to dodge traps, block bolts, and essentially give the military a greater challenge.  And they can tear up lesser trained dwarves and recruits much as your elites go through goblin regulars.  They are vulnerable however since they share the standard goblin weakness of not wearing full armor, and often "lead" units and thus hit things like cage traps first.

The equalizer (if anything) for goblins is mounts.  They make charge attacks and can knock dwarves off balance.  They act as additional targets and suck up bolt fire and clog traps.  And, depending on the mount, they are arguably a much more dangerous attack threat than the goblin rider.  Some of the auxiliary attack units (normally trolls) might do some damage, but are usually not that big of a threat.  Though a unit of flyers, or giant cave spiders, might make one rethink attack tactics.

Sieges bring goblins out in numbers, but they also give you time to sound alerts, bring in your civilians, and do some preparation.  And the goblin squads will hang around the edge for a bit of time before attacking - and even then not all at once.  And besides a goblin squad running once it takes enough casualties (especially if the leader is wounded) the squads on the edge will leave if there are enough casualties taken by the entire attack.  So, for instance, if you clobber the group of trolls and decimate the initial attacking squad the other squads might just decide to leave without even engaging.  (Which leads to defense designs intended to trap as many goblins *in* as possible before they decide to start running.)

In my opinion the greater danger to your dwarf population are the non-siege ambush squads.  Snatchers might cause a casualty or two, and stab some watch animals, but most civilian casualties are some poor woodcutter (or liaison) getting jumped by seven goblins out of nowhere who hack him up before the military can respond.

The fortress can take steps to prevent this, but there always seems to be a certain point in a fort's development a few years in where the appearance of 2-3 ambush squads will potentially do a lot of damage.
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