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[Putnam]

Man, Fort mode got the focus for a good 6 years.

I am 100% sure that most of the DF players are also playing fortress mode only.

[citation needed]

[Mr. Palau]

Posts in adventure mode discussion sub-forum: 83271
Posts in dwarf mode discussion sub-forum: 493297, 492% greater than the number of posts in the adventure mode sub-forum. Doesn't prove that people are only playing fortress mode, but does prove that it is far more popular.

And then we can consider that the vast majority of threads in the gameplay questions sub-forum are about fortress mode, and add the number of posts in that sub-forum to the number of posts in the dwarf mode sub-forum, (295819 + 493297), and then we can add the posts in the community games and stories sub-forum, because almost all the threads there are about fortress mode, (789116 + 169326), for a final figure of approximately 958,442 posts about fortress mode (which is a conservative estimate because it does not account for posts in General Discussion that are really just talking about fortress mode, or the suggestions forum). Divide that number by the number of posts in the adventure sub-forum, and we can see that fortress mode is 1,050% more popular than adventure mode.

In defense of the original statement, if we assume that playing for X number of minutes generates one forum post, and that X is true for both Fortress and Adventure mode (which it likely is not, but it is necessary to assume that to continue. Also, X is probably higher for fortress mode than adventure mode since Fortress mode just takes much longer to play than adventure mode, and even if X is higher for adventure mode the original estimate was biased toward adventure mode, so that should cancel out to a reasonable degree), we can then infer that for each minute anyone plays in adventure mode, 11.5 minutes are played either by them or someone else in fortress mode.

Now lets put that in terms of people, Y+Y*11.5=100, we can see that Y equals 8, approximately 8% of all time playing the game is spent in adventure mode, and 92% in fortress mode. So, out of 100 people playing DF, if they could only play one mode, only 8 would play adventure mode. Now, being generous, lets divide the total DF population into people playing solely fortress mode, and people playing fortress mode 80% of the time and adventure mode 20% of the time. By spliting the original 8 adventure mode people's play time around 5 people, we arrive at 60 solely fortress mode players, and 40 mixed players.

Given that the amount of time played as discerned from the forum posts, again assuming that X was equal or near equal for both, is so biased in favor of fortress mode, it is highly likely that a good portion of the Dwarf Fortress community is only playing Fortress mode.

Ultimately it is Toady's choice and he can work on whatever he wants, but it is fairly clear that fortress mode is by far the more popular version of the game. Still, more than half the stuff in this release is bound to be incorporated into fortress mode soon (in a the DF definition of "soon"). If there is a feature that both adventure mode and fortress mode are going to have, and for which the mechanics are going to be pretty much the same, there is defiantly a very strong case for putting it in adventure mode first. Adventure mode is just much more simple and makes and easier testing ground than fortress mode. I would want any new features that would be applicable in both to be played in adventure mode first, to ensure it works right and has no bugs, before it comes to fortress mode. Even more of the stuff that they have in adventure mode for the next release will hopefully be incorporated in fortress mode eventually, like tracking moving armines (IIRC we are supposed to be able to send out armies eventually).

[Putnam]

I never said that it wasn't far less popular, I said that it's not very likely that the majority of players are playing only fort mode.

Besides, it's far less popular because there's nothing in there and no real goals except "kill everything". The instant that actually begins to improve, people start to complain?

[mnjiman]

Majority means more then 50%, and if you say that fortress mode is more popular than adventure (2 sets of data) then yes, saying that the majority plays fortress mode is a very correct statement.

[Putnam]

Plays only fortress mode.

[Mr S]

See also: Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[/derail]

Back to bitching about release schedules!!

[gimli]

Plays only fortress mode.

I am pretty sure that a well developed adventure mode would offer endless fun as well...BUT...if I ask myself, what would I prefer? Fortress mode with most of the planned feautres implemented OR adventure mode with most of the planned features implemented...I guess you know what would be my answer. Who would choose adventure mode? Only a few % of the players, I am sure about it.

My reply was based on the development speed. It's not like I hate adventure mode or anything like that. Just think about the state of the game + time. What  % of the v1.0 dev plans are coded in right now? Toady is working on the game for 8 years at least, if not more, and he was mostly focusing on fortress mode, and as we know, it's nowhere near complete. Not even close to the v1.0 plans IIRC.
Either way, thankfully some of the new codes which will be used in adventure mode now will be used in fortress mode later on, so maybe the new patch won't be so useless for the fortress mode players.

[Putnam]

Plays only fortress mode.

My reply was based on the development speed. It's not like I hate adventure mode or anything like that. Just think about the state of the game + time. What  % of the v1.0 dev plans are coded in right now? Toady is working on the game for 8 years at least, if not more, and he was mostly focusing on fortress mode, and as we know, it's nowhere near complete. Not even close to the v1.0 plans IIRC.
Either way, thankfully some of the new codes which will be used in adventure mode now will be used in fortress mode later on, so maybe the new patch won't be so useless for the fortress mode players.

1. ~34%, unless you mean with the next version, which I would say ~38%.
2. It isn't useless for fortress mode players, saying it is ignores multi-tile trees, the combat overhaul, job priority overhaul etc.
3. The current dev plan is mostly adventure mode based
4. The consolidated dev-page, while outdated, is about Adventure almost as much as it is dwarf mode; the power goals are almost exclusively adventure-based or applicable to both.

It's a vicious loop to say that fortress mode should be preferred over adventure mode in development because more people play fortress mode, as more people play fortress mode because it's further in development than adventure mode.

[Pharaun]

Considering how much framework this adventure update is laying, the next fortress update is probably going to completely change they way we play.

[Vlad]

Considering how much framework this adventure update is laying, the next fortress update is probably going to completely change they way we play.

We're gonna have to rethink fortress defense now that combat against multiple enemies is going to be extremely harder now.

No longer can we fend off the entire goblin siege with only a few highly skilled dwarves. It won't be as badass but it'll be more realistic and challenging.

[Pharaun]

We're gonna have to rethink fortress defense now that combat against multiple enemies is going to be extremely harder now.

No longer can we fend off the entire goblin siege with only a few highly skilled dwarves. It won't be as badass but it'll be more realistic and challenging.

Personally, I'm hoping for the ability to invade other sites and civilizations. With the upcoming "claimed land" addition, it might be that we'll have extremely limited options for settlement. World domination, anyone?

[Mr. Palau]

Lets just get clear on this: Adventure mode development basically is fortress mode development. Maybe 33% of what is planned for adventure mode is entirely un-applicable to fortress mode, and the rest all eventually will go into Fortress mode. Fortress mode is definitely the far more complex version of the game, and will take much more work, but will end up including pretty much all of adventure mode's code most likely.

Here is a list of things from the current dev-page which, I think, would only ever be used in adventure mode (these are all catagory names, things in parathenisis are opinions/rationales) :
- Sneaking and disguise portions of the Hero role above are required (hero specific)
- Selling stolen property (really no use in fort mode, maybe small use for crime)
- Torment the living (we are already tormented by night creatures and the undead in fort mode)
- Hunting them [night creatures] down (forts are not going to be doing that)
- Mansions for sale (why buy far away mansions? Possible property investment, tops)
- Wood use (was just adventure mode wood crafting)
- Digging and stone constructions (was just adventure mode stone crafting)
- Growing crops (this and the other above things are already present in fortress mode, so no possible improvements to be made)
- Your followers (separate personality system from the one fort mode uses in all likely hood).

Also to illustrate overlap here are example of areas which on the surface could be solely adventure mode based but could also influence fortress mode eventually or even pretty soon (again development names, and then another dash to indicate what I think could be used in Fortress mode).
- Justice - a more comprehensive justice system could be adapted for Fortress mode.
- Bounties and being hunted - offer bounties for people to catch criminals who escaped your fortress or have criminals arrive at your fortress fleeing the police.
- Concealing your identity - Migrants could be hidden spies, admittedly not a lot of overlap here.
- Adventure sites - you could embark on abandoned sites in Fortress mode.
- Traps - the mechanics for how adventurers detect traps could be used by invaders in Fortress mode.
- Curses and exposure - they could curse things in fort mode
- Mapping and obstacles - ports and boats make islands more interesting
- Lands and beastiary - varying lands in adventure mode also means varying land in Fortress mode
- First contact - how leaders react to adventurers could be used as a base for how they react to our envoys.
- Site resources - keeping track of resources would lend itself well to Fortress mode trading being better and more realistic.
- World economy - Duh/see above
- Ability to lead a trade caravan - having adventurers start trade caravans is, again, adaptable to fortress mode
- Court - depending on how toady does it, could overlap with improving politics in Fort mode, sadly his development goal is pretty unspecific about how he intends this to work.
- Hunting/tracking animals - small overlap with a hunting improvement. very small.
- Raising livestock - overlaps with improving livestock in fort mode.
- Mounts - would lend itself to improvements in mount mechanics in Fort mode.
- Combat styles - combat is very much convertible.
- Breaking into fortified locations - thieves, snatchers, all would benefit from this. probably improved mechanics.
- Capturing people alive and interrogations - small overlap, capture goblins and other things, interrogate them, torture elves, etc.
- Villains - same villains that pester adventurers would also pester us in fort mode.

There we go, all counted up. As determined by me, in my humble opinion (no sarcasm intended), 9 were solely applicable to adventure mode, and 20 (!) were at least partially applicable. Out of the 20 ones with overlap, around 13 or so had strong cases for substantial overlap in my mind, 4-5 had a medium amount of overlap, and only 2-3 had only very small overlap, and you could make a good case for the 9 ones that I said had no potential overlap being moved into the small overlap category, or possibly into the medium overlap category.

In the end I think that most of the stuff for adventure mode overlaps with that for fortress mode, and the stuff that does not overlap actually sounds like the stuff that would be much easier to implement. Ultimately, Toady will work on whatever the heck he wants and we will just play the game he puts out, but Adventure mode and Fortress mode are two sides of one coin. You see in my mind DF is really about a big, ever evolving world (or at least it is now since the outside world does not totally freeze when you start a fortress) and Adventure mode and Fortress mode are just two different ways for experiencing that world. They compliment each other. I will probably always play Fortress mode, but as adventure mode gets better I might actually start to play it occasionally, maybe even just to visit the location of my fortress.

[gimli]

Good post, palau.
Well, if Toady decided to focus on adventure mode [even if partially], what can we do about it? If he thinks it's the best for his game, it must be the best for the game. Simple I guess. Now I understand some of the dev plans and his decisions with regard to why is it needed to code in these things firstly for adventure mode. My only concern was/is/will be the huge time gaps between releases, and it feels even worse now because of the current dev choices....but like I said, I understand Toady's dev decisions.

Perhaps this whole thing boils down to the awesomeness of this game, and that it's a pain in the *** to wait so many months [latest release was more than a year ago afterall] for a new release. So if I am correct, the new version will be 0.38? That means 4% progress in ~1 year. 

[Putnam]

The last big time gap was 34.01, which was mostly an adventure mode thing but also added vampires, necromancers, evil biome things and interactions.

My guess is that the next version will be 38.01, but it could be different.

[EnigmaticHat]

I for one primarily play adventure mode and am happy it's getting some love.

Also, part of the reason the adventure mode forums are so inactive is because there's nothing left to say.  Adventure mode basically has four things to talk about: questing for kills/loot, fighting random innocents for no reason, modding/hacking the game, and random silliness like throwing bugs at people or glacier glitches.  Most of these things have been discussed to death.