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[Rolan7]

You look like you can take a blow, sneak thief. Why don't you brew me an ale when your fancy illusions are done? Just watch it with your destruction magic and honeyed words.

[Broseph Stalin]

Yeah, at least in the main game they had the decency for a flashbang out of nowhere. It wasn't great or anything, but at least it's something that could conceivably stun you long enough for the Enclave to capture you.

You were knocked out by a weapon that existed only for that cutscene after it was established there were exactly two entrances to the location you were at and no indication that they had used either. Did the Enclave hoof it through the impossibly radioactive entrance or did Mayor McCeady think they were cool?

Oh and while I'm at it Mayor FUCKING McCready. If you're doing the main quest in one go then shortly after you watch your father die and then have your progress obstructed by a PLYWOOD GATE guarded by children who have armed themselves with the fact that Bethesda wouldn't let you hurt a child. Even assuming you're the kind of character who wouldn't hurt a child (I was for the record, two children died in a ball of nuclear fire because I was slightly bothered by the way the sheriff of Megaton spoke to me.) you're probably the kind of person who would say "Hey you stupid kids, stop fucking around this is actually a life or death thing."

[NullForceOmega]

Given where the Enclave flashbangs you, they probably came through the front door.  In fact, other than 'thesda desperately wanting to pull their idiotic 'lord of the flies' ripoff there is no actual reason that you couldn't walk to the gate yourself, they just jacked the rads in that region to unimaginably stupid levels.

And I agree completely, I've already shared my thoughts on the utter fucking stupidity that is Little Lamplight before, I can't believe that they think so little of the franchise to put such intolerable mindless trash into the game.

[Reelya]

1. Character trades quest minor progress for a major side quest.

i don't think this could work any other way and still fulfill the needs of players.

If you cut out all the side quests then people complain the main story of the game is too short.

If you make the side-quests optional you get nihilism: what's the point of helping people/doing stuff if it doesn't contribute at all to the main story.

If you make all the side-quests be part of the main quest then people complain that the main quest is too convoluted, and they forget the story.

By breaking it up into mandatory side-quests then you get longer play-time in scripted storylines but it's also broken down enough that you don't get confused about what your actual main quest was about, since the main quest is conceptually distinct from the side-quests and is easy to keep in mind.

[pikachu17]

I myself try to always do side-quests, even if there is no reward. What is the point of being a One-Man Army if you can't help people?

[Broseph Stalin]

i don't think this could work any other way and still fulfill the needs of players.

If you cut out all the side quests then people complain the main story of the game is too short.

If you make the side-quests optional you get nihilism: what's the point of helping people/doing stuff if it doesn't contribute at all to the main story.

If you make all the side-quests be part of the main quest then people complain that the main quest is too convoluted, and they forget the story.

By breaking it up into mandatory side-quests then you get longer play-time in scripted storylines but it's also broken down enough that you don't get confused about what your actual main quest was about, since the main quest is conceptually distinct from the side-quests and is easy to keep in mind.

I disagree. I'm playing a video game, I want to do quests I would have done each of the quests I listed with bells on my toes. Hell, the Honest Hearts example was the ENTIRE DLC, I'm not going to buy the DLC then not play it. The problem is bad writing, the developers failed to integrate the quest to the plot in an interesting way.
Notice that I didn't complain about having side quests associated with the main quest I complained about the trading
.
 Having the barrier be some guy being a dick (usually without acknowledging their a dick is a bad solution. If you need to include side quests in the main quest for balance think of a reason for it to make sense- and for Fucks sake don't make it "proving your worth". Just having the thing you need cost the quest giver something would work.

If Joshua Graham had to send people to scout out a route for you to go home then it would 100% make sense that he won't help you without you doing stuff for him. What if three dog didn't know where your father was but could use his broadcast to find out, boom now the side quest isn't just him holding your progress hostage.In KCD it was totally unnecessary, I actually did need to cure the plague before I could interrogate the prisoner but the guy refused to open his barn and let me check for myself.

[Kagus]

Well, think about it from Graham's point of view... You're singlehandedly trying to get an entire (small) tribe to drop their incessantly peaceful ways and stand up to a larger, better-armed, considerably more violent aggressor. Then some random doofus with the skills and equipment necessary to completely trash the enemy tribe gets plopped directly into your lap, and has a rather critical need that you can provide for.

You've just been given the answer to your prayers, and the bargaining chip to use it... Or you could be nice and just point them on their way, condemning your entire tribe and possibly yourself to a brutal and painful death.


Additionally Joshua Graham is not a nice man, this is established fairly well in the game. He's trying to do the right thing, especially after Caesar, but he is not "nice". Fuck yeah he's gonna string you along if he thinks it will stop the massacre of "innocents".

[Reelya]

Probably agree. NPCs being selfish and unreasonable in a dangerous world isn't bad writing, it is in fact more realistic.

In the real world things don't magically always align with your quest.

[Broseph Stalin]

Except it's never presented as the character being selfish or unreasonable. This is always something that the writing totally brushes past, it's not an aspect of their character, it doesn't color the plot going forward, it's just something that happened because nobody on staff had a better idea. Note that I'm not annoyed by the Brotherhood of Steel doing the same thing with the collar, they were dicks and the world acknowledges and treats them like dicks.

My first playthrough of Honest Hearts was about ten minutes long because I responded, I think reasonably, to being made a quest slave be killing every motherfucker who thought that was something you could and live.
 

[USEC_OFFICER]

Because nothing screams reasonable like mass murder.

[Broseph Stalin]

If you murder everyone who's mean to you then eventually the world will be filled with nice people. I'm basically a hero.

[AzyWng]

I just want to say I admire your sense of self-control.

EDIT: Also, some of the things you've said so far have made me wonder if you don't want the world to revolve around the player.

Sure, the player character is a central figure and all, but I don't think the world would exactly move for them, and I also don't think the player should have 100% total control over what happens to them or to others. Otherwise, that causes other things in the plot to break, or clashes with the messages the creators wanted to send.

[Arbinire]

I kind of agree with what Brosef is saying but I do disagree with some of his examples (like Joshua Graham).  Pragmatism is totally within his character profile, and how he treats your character is pragmatic.  I think AzyWng kinda hit the nail on the head with the comment about wanting the world to revolve around the player.  One thing in New Vegas one needs to realize is that 1) gameplay deathcount doesn't equate to character development, and no one in that situation, even a mass murderer would have the body count you wrack up just playing the game, but it'd be boring if your kill count was limited to a couple dozen.  And 2) Unlike Bethesda games, the main character in New Vegas isn't you, the player, but the setting of New Vegas.  The story isn't about you and your achievements, you're just a nameless mailman.

All that said though the underlying peeve I totally understand.  It's something MMO's do constantly and it does become pretty lazy.  Something that kinda ties into this for me would be the Deus Ex modern games.  You can be doing a perfect stealth playthrough not killing anyone but then the game forces you to fight the "bosses" head on just because that's what videogames do.  Yeah they usually have means of tipping those battles in your favor but there's no "non-violent" means of achieving your goals.

[TamerVirus]

Something that kinda ties into this for me would be the Deus Ex modern games.  You can be doing a perfect stealth playthrough not killing anyone but then the game forces you to fight the "bosses" head on just because that's what videogames do.  Yeah they usually have means of tipping those battles in your favor but there's no "non-violent" means of achieving your goals.

Didn't the devs try to address that by making  that one DLC have a boss with a possible non-violent solution?

[Sergius]

Something that kinda ties into this for me would be the Deus Ex modern games.  You can be doing a perfect stealth playthrough not killing anyone but then the game forces you to fight the "bosses" head on just because that's what videogames do.  Yeah they usually have means of tipping those battles in your favor but there's no "non-violent" means of achieving your goals.

Didn't the devs try to address that by making  that one DLC have a boss with a possible non-violent solution?

They also (allegedly) retroactively fix the old bosses in the DC. But they specifically stated that it was a mistake because they outsourced the boss fights and the other company had no idea this wasn't just a generic action shooter.