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[itisnotlogical]

That's called transmogrification in WoW. If I recall correctly, it unlocks around level 60 and costs a fuckton of gold.

On the other hand, it's difficult to make an offensively bad outfit in WoW. It's all muted colors and generic armor pieces, nobody looks at anybody else's character anyway.

I like Star Trek Online's approach: armor doesn't affect your appearance at all. You wear your uniform, which is 100% designed by you.

[Rolan7]

> Muted colors
uh
From an outsider's perspective, WoW armor is pretty cartoony and sometimes garish.

[Calidovi]

many seek balance between form and function
i, however, negate shit with shit

[Rolan7]

Hey unusual good-yet-bad one!  Racist or speceist exclamations.
Especially from allies, and ESPECIALLY when my character is of the targetted group.

My Khajiit was pretty nice but he straight-up murdered Nords who pulled that... "You'll make a fine rug cat" shit.
And just now, Niko did a job with an Italian who said "Go back to fucking Moscow!"... 5 times in as many minutes...
Not that Niko is even Russian, but this douchebag doesn't know that.  what the fuck

Like, I know you're stealing drugs from the Russians, but maybe spare the tiniest thought about the haunted Yugoslavian with the thousand yard stare who is killing dozens of people and screaming shit which, in some cases, approaches phrases like "I'lL rIP ofF yoUr FUCKin hEAds@!"

like
maybe don't be racist
at least against the race you think that guy is

also you'll make a nice rug, nord fuck

Edit: Sorta semi related, I encounter almost physical discomfort when interacting with "Bernie", the ultra-campy gay stereotype in GTA4.  I really don't want to do those missions.  That... run animation...
But when some hick attacked Bernie for being gay?
Wrong move pal, you're going to beg for death.

Edit2:  I say "good-yet-bad" because it actually gets me emotionally invested a bit.  I'm not mad at the designers, I'm mad at these pixels who *dare*...
though I'm a little annoyed at the GTA4 designers for making Bernie, except that they exaggerate everyone else so.

[Neonivek]

Ok here is one...

If there is ONE thing I can point to as the worst part of ALL 4x games with no exception I can personally think of it is

Research

Just... the research...

I could make a long paragraph but really it can be summed up as: If there is something that is always consistently bad it is the research.

[pisskop]

How would you suggest making research if not a quantifiable asset gained from controllable sources (such as buildings, or population, or units)?

[Neonivek]

How would you suggest making research if not a quantifiable asset gained from controllable sources (such as buildings, or population, or units)?

That isn't the problem. It is just always done badly.

You can find a single element that has been done well in at least one 4x game... Except research.

[UXLZ]

Arguably most other sorts of potential research systems that are logical would be overcomplicated. The "wait 7 turns then SUDDENLY POTTERY" is a bit weird, but it's also easy to comprehend and does fulfill its purpose.

[Neonivek]

Arguably most other sorts of potential research systems that are logical would be overcomplicated. The "wait 7 turns then SUDDENLY POTTERY" is a bit weird, but it's also easy to comprehend and does fulfill its purpose.

It doesn't have to be logical heck it could be total nonsense bizaro land logic.

Yet it is rarely fun or lends itself to a good time.

[UXLZ]

The problem is that logical systems are usually also intuitive ones, and non-intuitive game design is typically a bad thing. Even take DF, for example. Imagine if the command for a manual attack was "Ctrl+`" or "Shift+Z" rather than "Shift+A."

[Neonivek]

The problem is that logical systems are usually also intuitive ones, and non-intuitive game design is typically a bad thing. Even take DF, for example. Imagine if the command for a manual attack was "Ctrl+`" or "Shift+Z" rather than "Shift+A."

Yeah take that UXLZ!

Errr wait...

[askovdk]

Arguably most other sorts of potential research systems that are logical would be overcomplicated. The "wait 7 turns then SUDDENLY POTTERY" is a bit weird, but it's also easy to comprehend and does fulfill its purpose.

It doesn't have to be logical heck it could be total nonsense bizaro land logic.

Yet it is rarely fun or lends itself to a good time.

I guess most games see ‘research’ as a tool to make something else fun. I.e. it’s the ‘timer’ that at certain intervals gives the player new tools to play the game with.

To make research itself fun I guess it has to be some kind of mini-game (which in turn would make many traditional 4x players angry).
I have seen this done well once, in Puzzle Quest Galactrix (yes, it’s crafting, but as you only need one of each item, then it could as well be research).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ydkkqia4uw
It works well in that game, and does indeed add the feeling, that you as a player have earned the science, instead of just been given it from the hired egg-heads.

[Damiac]

I agree that research is generally never an exciting part of 4x games, but then, it doesn't tend to get in the way either.  Typically you choose a research goal, some turns pass, you get the research and you choose a new goal.

Could you describe in super general terms what you think a good research system would look like in a 4x? 

[Ai Shizuka]

I don't see how research could be made interesting in 4x or grand strategy games.

Research in Factorio is cool, but it's an entirely different kind of game.

[Niveras]

I'm not sure it should be "interesting." Building up your empire and deploying strategies against your enemies should be the interesting parts. Advancing tech is just one tool in that regard and acquiring it by accumulating points is just how it (presently) manifests in 4X. There's nothing to stop a dev from trying to make it more 'fun' or involved or simply interesting, but doing so is likely to shift the focus of the game away from what we think of 4X. Not because 4X survives on that implementation, but because it'll come from a place of "let's try 4X, but different."