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[ChairmanPoo]

The lack of socialization as a major game mechanic in RPGs. Alpha Protocol and Mass Effect came close to a prototype stage, but never achieved it.

?

[ChairmanPoo]

Point and clicks were on their way to finally being great games, without exceptions, in the 90s until both the internet made good design pointless... and Telltale made thinking pointless...

Personally I always found 90s point-and-click games utterly unplayable, but w/e.

I tend to agree with this article: http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/77.html

Who killed Adventure Games?  I think it should be pretty clear at this point that Adventure Games committed suicide.

[itisnotlogical]

NPCs that say something Every. Single. Time. That you pass by them.

I hate Freeside in New Vegas almost as much as I hated walking around Megaton in FO3. It's about as hard to navigate, and Megaton didn't even have annoying "crier" NPCs that say the same one or two lines every time you walk past them.

"We've got stuff we're not even allowed to sell, people! Only at Mick n' Ralph's!"
"Do you want someone dead? Like, really dead?"
"Hungry? Thirsty? Horny? Stop by the Atomic Wrangler!"

It's almost become a game in itself to try and get around Freeside without walking close enough to the NPCs to let them speak.

[Neonivek]

Point and clicks were on their way to finally being great games, without exceptions, in the 90s until both the internet made good design pointless... and Telltale made thinking pointless...

Personally I always found 90s point-and-click games utterly unplayable, but w/e.

I tend to agree with this article: http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/77.html

Who killed Adventure Games?  I think it should be pretty clear at this point that Adventure Games committed suicide.

Yeah I am going to put that article on my pet peeve list... I don't care if it doesn't count.

It is the equivalent of someone saying Shooters suck... then plays Daikatana to prove it and tells you that everything in Daikatana is "Good Shooter designer" that are typical of shooters.

Which would be FINE as just a funny article, even I found it funny... but they sheer number of people who believe it or honestly believes it is representative of the genre. So here we go!

I always have to get someone using it as a put down.

[Shadowlord]

I have to wonder what happened to the guy to result in the website having no new posts since 2002, while still existing in 2016.

[Darkmere]

Re: that article: What the fuck is with the Babylon 5 hateboners I keep seeing around? Did I miss some great fandom shame that besmirched the series forever in the eyes of the common man or...?

[Rolan7]

Idunno Neo...  I like adventure games in theory, and a few in practice (mostly LucasArts, but certainly not all LucasArts).  But the problem he's pointing out there is... everywhere.  And I don't think Gabriel Knight is the "Daikatana" of adventure games anyway.  Honestly there are so many puzzles even worse (bad, terrible, game-and-genre-ruining) in other titles.  At least Gabriel Knight doesn't seem to let you render the game secretly unwinnable by missing an item you won't need for hours!  (Especially the magnet in Space Quest 1, but really all the King and Space Quests did that IIRC)

It's like exchanging riddles with a friend, and at first it's pretty fun.  Some of them are tough, but if you think long enough you can figure out the answer (or you guess close enough that he gives you a clue).

Then he asks "What is the difference between a duck?"  And if you don't answer "One of its legs are both the same." then he just shakes his head.  (For text-parser adventures, you might have to misspell "its" "it's")

Just... completely ruins the necessary trust.  For the rest of the game I have to keep wondering "Does this actually have an answer that'll make any sense at all, even in retrospect, or am I just supposed to brute force my inventory on every pixel?".  Which just ruins my ability to keep trying to figure out the clever answer, if there is one.

I'm happy if you don't think classic game adventure puzzles get that absurd.  I don't understand it though.  Even the Lucasarts games I loved growing up were guilty of this...  They were only saved because I had the free time of a child, a brother, and my dad pointed us in the right direction when we got too stuck. 

Nowadays I enjoy watching LPs of adventure games, and occasionally playing one with a walkthrough handy.  I try not to look up answers.  Sometimes I feel vindicated afterwards:  "Oh, I missed that 3-pixel grey on grey item." or "...I could have just used the wrench, that wallaby didn't need to die."  But what I really hate is when I ruin an ACTUAL puzzle.  "Shit!  If I'd just kept thinking about it, that would have felt so cool!"  That's why I hate nonsensical non-puzzles, and their bewildering presence in otherwise good games.  I don't know about other people, but for me, they ruined a genre I loved growing up.

[Neonivek]

At least Gabriel Knight doesn't seem to let you render the game secretly unwinnable by missing an item you won't need for hours!

Yes, THAT, was an early design flaw that Sierra for some reason kept thinking was a good one. Yet Point and Clicks long since stopped doing that, well good ones anyway, by the time we got to Gabriel Knight 3.

I'm happy if you don't think classic game adventure puzzles get that absurd.

Ohh no goodness... They did. They got REALLY obsurd and even some of them I like have that ONE puzzle that I loathe (or two...). Heck it is almost a given that a point and click will have one lousy puzzle.

Heck I like The First Kings Quest but what did it have?: Two puzzles that if you don't solve it IMMEDIATELY is impossible to win (One of which requires an item you might not have yet), one really obtuse nearly impossible to solve puzzle (DANG IT Rumplestiltskin!), and a puzzle that can ONLY be solved by brute forcing it (Sierra... did this back then. One Leisure Suit Larry game had a gambling puzzle that could only be solved through saving and loading as the solution. Which I guess is fair, though it is non-intuitive).

But I look at how the genre evolved through the years, I look at all the good examples of point and click design... and to throw it all under the bus... because of a single game and a single puzzle that wasn't even good design
-Though... double bonus that Sean didn't understand the basics of the puzzle. The Mustache was specifically BECAUSE the guy in the picture didn't have one because Gabriel doesn't look like him. It was a distraction.

"Does this actually have an answer that'll make any sense at all, even in retrospect, or am I just supposed to brute force my inventory on every pixel?".

This is why I REALLY REALLY should have continued my "How to play Point and clicks" letsplay... Most of the time point and clicks have logic and playing it requires bending your thinking to go onto its level.

For example Monkey Island 2...

-Where do you get the Shovel?: Take it off the No Shoveling Sign.
-How do you turn the nut?: Use the money... Why? Monkey Wrench
--Obtuse Puzzle: You can pick up the entire dog.

Especially the magnet in Space Quest 1, but really all the King and Space Quests did that IIRC

Ummm... I believe it is ALL the Space Quests except the last two sort of (though the last one is due to a timed puzzle that you can in theory run out of time for in a save)... And Three of the Kings Quest games.

Sierra could make some good games... But yeah they believed that "Unfair" was "difficult"

[Rolan7]

Heh, yeah I think he played up the no-mustache part for a rather cheap laugh.  Adding it to the passport and the face does make sense in retrospect.  Though it seems bizarre

I recently rewatched Retsupurae riff on Hopkins FBI, which is obviously not an example of good puzzles...  But damn is it entertaining.  Or as they subtitle the playlist, "Fun But Insane".

They also did Dark Seed (1&2), Shadow of the Comet, Ripper, Phantasmagoria...  All of which had their share of nonsensical puzzles.  But that's only natural since they're a riffing group, so of course they're choosing games which are easier to make fun of.  So that's where I was coming from (though I still think Monkey Island and Day of the Tentacle had some silly puzzles too).

Fairest adventure game I remember playing was probably Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis.  We usually played Team or Fists instead of the puzzle path though.  I think the Dig was pretty fair but difficult too.  People point out assembling the turtle to kill the serpent, but eh...  There are hints for that.

[ChairmanPoo]

Yeah I am going to put that article on my pet peeve list... I don't care if it doesn't count.

It is the equivalent of someone saying Shooters suck... then plays Daikatana to prove it and tells you that everything in Daikatana is "Good Shooter designer" that are typical of shooters.

Which would be FINE as just a funny article, even I found it funny... but they sheer number of people who believe it or honestly believes it is representative of the genre. So here we go!

I always have to get someone using it as a put down.

Problem is most, if not all, adventure games are like that. Granted, there was a lot of crap in the genre because nothing else ran properly and everyone rushed to make their own graphic adventure game (much like it happened later to FPS and RTS games). But even the good, memorable, classic ones have ridiculous amounts of insane logic and pixel hunting.  Why is it necessary to threaten the suspect sometimes yet some others it leads to game over, with no apparent difference? Why use the smoothie on the hearing aid? Why oh why  does an entire key subplot rely on me getting a kebab in the most roundabout way possible?

TL, DR: graphic adventures were always too arbitrary.

[Neonivek]

SOMETIMES... The reason the puzzle makes no sense in those games is because they skipped where the solution came from. Kings Quest 7 is not only REALLY boring to watch (and I like the game) but the person doing the run skipped every single speech, queue, or section made to tell you what the heck you are even supposed to do. Other times it is because it is a crazy crazy thing

But that's only natural since they're a riffing group, so of course they're choosing games which are easier to make fun of.

Hey they did Kings Quest 6 which is honestly one of the best point and clicks (and some people say it is 5), yet they feature a lot of quirky craziness that yeah you could easily riff on it. It isn't a sign of the game's quality that it is riffable.

HECK Half-life 1 has an entire series based on nothing but making fun of the game.

Though yeah sometimes they are bad.

Fairest adventure game I remember playing was probably Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis.  We usually played Team or Fists instead of the puzzle path though.  I think the Dig was pretty fair but difficult too.  People point out assembling the turtle to kill the serpent, but eh...  There are hints for that

There are lots of Fair Point and Clicks. Heck Phantasmagoria as bad a reputation it has, only had one bad stupid puzzle... In all fairness I believe the Manual, which it assumes you read, tells you the solution to the puzzle (it is meant as a tutorial on looking at items... which I think is the only time it is important in the entire game)

I am kind of sad a lot of really great point and clicks are mired with like ONE or two bad puzzles.

Though if you want a point and click that I liked as a child but HAAAAATE as an adult... Simon the Sorcerer... Which it isn't because of the BS puzzles (and there are like 4-5 REALLY bad puzzles in this game)... It is because it is one of the only games I played where ALL the items blend into the background, can BE a part of the background, and you could need one of the background items in a scene with many of them.

In fact I got soo used to playing Simon the Sorcerer and knowing its total BS I went into a room and went "Ok, lets find the one rock on the ground we need to pick up" and I was freeken right.

Problem is most, if not all, adventure games are like that.

No, that puzzle is a huge outlier. It is no where close to representative to the series.

Why use the smoothie on the hearing aid?

To short it out and it is the only thing you had on you at the time

That is... a surprisingly logical puzzle given you are supposed to list moon logic ones.

graphic adventures were always too arbitrary.

I'd accept that. At least by some definition. They pride themselves on thinking outside the box and needing to solve problems without the tools normally necessary to do so. So I like how clever point and clicks are.

Where most games would just give you the direct solution to a problem (or make you fetch quest). Point and Clicks are pretty obtuse.

[Rolan7]

Though yeah sometimes they are bad.

Nah Retsupurae's perfect!  Well... actually that's a different conversation.
But I wasn't blaming them, just saying they chose flawed examples of the genre to make fun of (of course).  Which possibly made me remember the genre as worse than it actually was.

And yeah I almost didn't mention Phantasmagoria... Though it does have the separate thing of making you observe X Y and Z before progress mysteriously unlocks.  Which isn't inherently bad, it's just a hybrid of visual novel and puzzle game.

[Neonivek]

Though yeah sometimes they are bad.

Nah Retsupurae's perfect!  Well... actually that's a different conversation.
But I wasn't blaming them, just saying they chose flawed examples of the genre to make fun of (of course).  Which possibly made me remember the genre as worse than it actually was.

And yeah I almost didn't mention Phantasmagoria... Though it does have the separate thing of making you observe X Y and Z before progress mysteriously unlocks.  Which isn't inherently bad, it's just a hybrid of visual novel and puzzle game.

I meant sometimes the game is bad xD

As for Phantasmagoria... the only thing I can say in its defense is when you do observe X... Your problem solving senses will make you seek out Y and Z... and I believe progress seeks you out.

Though if I remember correctly you don't HAVE to see X, Y, and Z they might have been optional?

It isn't as bad as when RPGs require you to "talk to all the NPCs" to advance. I've only avoided those because... I do.

[Rolan7]

Hm I don't actually know...  I got the impression they were necessary, but I wasn't playing it myself.  I seem to remember stuff like the LPer going through the foyer, observing X Y Z, and then a scene happening next time they enter the foyer.  It's possible that only the dialogue/inventory puzzles unlocked the progress though!

[Neonivek]

Hm I don't actually know...  I got the impression they were necessary, but I wasn't playing it myself.  I seem to remember stuff like the LPer going through the foyer, observing X Y Z, and then a scene happening next time they enter the foyer.  It's possible that only the dialogue/inventory puzzles unlocked the progress though!

I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. That game creeps the heck out of me and that is the section of the game where the game actually gets scary.

Which I will give Phantasmagoria ALL the credit for being a slow cook. Where most critics detract the game for taking 5/7ths of the game to finally get scary... I REALLY appreciated the build up and how the mansion changes very slightly each and every chapter. My favorite is the Fortune Teller and how she and her fortunes get more and more sinister as the game goes on. Then again I didn't play the game to be scared all the time, so that might be the difference.

I am in the odd position of saying that Phantasmagoria is underrated... but I can't really disagree with its solid 6/10 score, it seems rather fair. Yet I guess it is that it is a solid 6, not a weak 6.