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Author Topic: Socialism thread  (Read 4406 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2013, 09:32:53 am »

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Envy to the guy who studied hard in a college to become a pro when they chose booze and chicks:  Legend: He has unfair benefits at work. Unskilled worker is as important as a skilled one"

So what? Free will doesn't exist, so assigning people different moral values according to their decisions is nonsense. All people have, in isolation, equal moral weight.
If you choose not to believe in the illusion of free will does not exist, then the same counts for happiness, pain, and all other emotions. It requires a fundamental change for the moral and value systems, and would make your socialistic system obsolete. If you deny the existence of the human "spirit", you deny the worth of the individual live. A society based on that would require the sacrifice of the individual to further the survival of others.

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Envy to the guy that is great investor, and chooses the best routes for capital, because they waste money on various crap and have no brains to use money rationally. Legend: He  gets money from "nothing"!
You know how investors make money? They make money when other people lose it. That's how competition works: you win out because your competitor fails. If you buy a stock and it goes up, you've taken a lot of money from the person you bought from. So, no, they don't get money from nothing. They get money from theft, just like the rest of the capitalist class.
While I'm not going to deny that the current financial system is a mess, going as far as saying that it's theft causes a whole lot of problems. After all, with that reasoning everything becomes theft.
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Envy to pop stars that get fame and luxury. Legend: My garage music is better! I just have no money for the PR. 
Oh, yes, excuse me for objecting to the proposal that the work of Britney Spears is somehow tens of thousands of times more valuable than a coal miner or a construction worker who makes genuine improvements to society.
Music is quite important for psychological wellbeing, actually. Certainly better than smog and endless urban zones.

What constitutes an improvement to society? Because you've been switching that term around whenever you feel like it.

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Now they'll say that it's not a proper socialist, good old dogma.
Well, Rousseau wasn't a socialist. You seem to be unable to comprehend the fact that saying someone is a socialist does not change the definition of the world. Socialism is control of the economy by workers. Rousseau was in favor of private property, he wanted government controlled by the people, but not the economy. You know what the word for that is? A liberal.

But you're insisting that I justify socialism. I've done plenty of that. No, it's not perfect, but what you're implying is that it's acceptable to have millions of people starve to death as long as you avoid inefficient economics. How can you possibly hold that moral view? Do you have any sort of ethical framework, or is it egoism all the way down?
It's very hard to pigeonhole philosophers into categories. Definitions change over time, and well, it's already a mess as it is.

Oh, and I think that UR is defending a place where some starve to death as opposed to a situation where all starve to death, which would be the result of a terribly managed socialist system. (Socialist China is a great example of this)
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Gervassen

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2013, 09:35:10 am »

stop with the insults.

I was joking about that. Well, mostly. When someone states outright that people should be able to choose to do nothing, I think a lot of other people start looking askant at whoever proposes that. Even most socialists. The thread-worn phrase of Marxism is "From each according to his ability... " rather than "From each according to whatever the fuck he chooses to contribute... "

Most socialists are not on your wavelength, if you think it's okay for people to do nothing on the backs of others. The same otiose vices that you would decry in the rich fatcats are the same that you would apparently accept in the proletariat. How does that jibe? The few living off the work of many is bad, but many living off the work of a few is the ideal society?

Here's the only point that I want to really make in this reply, though...

arguing against the inherent goodness of human nature only makes a point for those of us who want to regulate it. capitalism depends too much on the good will of the rich, it wouldn't work at all if it was kept unregulated and it works better where it is heavily regulated.
more rules isn't always better, but sometimes it is, and we desperately need better.

No, arguing against inherent goodness of human nature means... who regulates the regulators? In the USSR, the politburo members all had fancy countryside dachas and several mistresses drawing fat allowances while everyone else lead dreary lives in cement boxes that all looked the same. That's what you want. You want to regulate the iniquities of human nature via the selfless efforts of people susceptible to the iniquities of human nature.

There will always be a ruling class. Get used to it. They will always live better than you. The selfish and social climbers will always gravitate to that sphere of society that enables them a chance to reach those heights. Every soviet who was on the make and looking to rise in the world chose to study politics and enter the central government. Then they lived a lifestyle far above those they controlled and regulated. Would you rather live in a society where businessmen are uber-rich, or where politicians are uber-rich?
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kingfisher1112

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2013, 09:35:26 am »

The whole - "I don't work for social parasites that don't deserve luxury " is a blatant lie, because socialists find it's perfectly fine to support social parasites if they aren't richer than themselves.
Goal of socialists is to make the world without rich people, I prefer the world where everyone is rich... opposite goals
Hello, I am Phil, the strawman. I have a straw wife in a straw house with wonderful straw children. I work in a debate factory, where I am abused constantly by my hirers. Please, find it in your hearts to stop strawman abuse.
You made me laugh. Thanks for that. Still, don't know why you'd go though that much effort for an Internet argument. Still, thanks for brightening up my day!
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2013, 10:02:30 am »

All everything is boring to answer, but that caught my attention:

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Oh, yes, excuse me for objecting to the proposal that the work of Britney Spears is somehow tens of thousands of times more valuable than a coal miner or a construction worker who makes genuine improvements to society.
Yep, work of Britney Spears job is more valuable, because  people think so and vote with their wallets. That's obvious. That's a free market. People need her music. That's their choice
Of cause copyright laws are faulty as they go against  free market principles, without them Britney would receive less, and more talented girls that would sing "her" songs would get their share of the profits... But that has nothing to do with socialism\capitalism

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but what you're implying is that it's acceptable to have millions of people starve to death as long as you avoid inefficient economics
No, I imply that inefficient economics of modern world plus humans' psychology lead to starvation, if you'll replace it with even more inefficient economics and laws that will benefit immoral behavior even more you'll increase starvation + take other nice stuff away. 

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Do you have any sort of ethical framework, or is it egoism all the way down?
Sure. There are people I care for. There are people I love. (including the whole Ukrainian nation, not to extent as close ones of cause) And no, I'll not make people I love unhappy   to improve lives of some random guys that make bad decisions that lead to their starvation, poverty and death. That's their choice or choices of the ones who are supposed to care about them(read: I rather buy Iphone for my niece for her birthday than food package for an African child. And no, I don't think it's horrible or even bad action. In a same fashion. I rather buy candies for Ukrainian orphans than rice for some Asian ones)
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

ibot66

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2013, 10:08:03 am »

While I agree with Ukrainianranger on many points, I don't really think you are effectively communicating your points, probably due to not being a native speaker of English.
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2013, 10:24:47 am »

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No, I imply that inefficient economics of modern world plus humans' psychology lead to starvation, if you'll replace it with even more inefficient economics and laws that will benefit immoral behavior even more you'll increase starvation + take other nice stuff away. 

Care to explain why Cuba isn't in a famine, then?

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Sure. There are people I care for. There are people I love. (including the whole Ukrainian nation, not to extent as close ones of cause) And no, I'll not make people I love unhappy   to improve lives of some random guys that make bad decisions that lead to their starvation, poverty and death. That's their choice or choices of the ones who are supposed to care about them(read: I rather buy Iphone for my niece for her birthday than food package for an African child. And no, I don't think it's horrible or even bad action. In a same fashion. I rather buy candies for Ukrainian orphans than rice for some Asian ones)

So only the people you care about matter? You really think that your own opinion is the sole determinant of morality?

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If you choose not to believe in the illusion of free will does not exist, then the same counts for happiness, pain, and all other emotions

No, because happiness does exist. I know that from personal experience. I do not know that I actually had a choice in any of my actions.

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A society based on that would require the sacrifice of the individual to further the survival of others.

That's exactly what I'm advocating. Not to mention that that's the entire point of christianity, and, if I recall correctly, you're a fairly religious christian.

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Music is quite important for psychological wellbeing, actually. Certainly better than smog and endless urban zones.

What constitutes an improvement to society? Because you've been switching that term around whenever you feel like it.

Alright, so I got a bit emotional there. Yes, Britney Spears makes a contribution to society. But the work she does is not any harder than what a manual laborer does, and certainly not thousands of times harder.

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where all starve to death, which would be the result of a terribly managed socialist system. (Socialist China is a great example of this)

Obviously most people in China didn't starve to death. And a terribly run system is going to fail no matter what. Capitalism has no special exemption from human stupidity.

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Most socialists are not on your wavelength, if you think it's okay for people to do nothing on the backs of others. The same otiose vices that you would decry in the rich fatcats are the same that you would apparently accept in the proletariat. How does that jibe? The few living off the work of many is bad, but many living off the work of a few is the ideal society?

Not him, but the few living off of the work of the many is fine. The few living lives of incredibly luxury on the work of others is not. I'm a socialist because I want to maximize happiness, not because I actually care about how fair things are.

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There will always be a ruling class. Get used to it.

Well, no, not really. If you eliminate all hierarchical power, there's very little leverage for people to use to put themselves in the ruling class.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2013, 10:55:37 am »

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No, I imply that inefficient economics of modern world plus humans' psychology lead to starvation, if you'll replace it with even more inefficient economics and laws that will benefit immoral behavior even more you'll increase starvation + take other nice stuff away. 

Care to explain why Cuba isn't in a famine, then?
They had a pretty big one in the 90's. After that, the socialistic system was loosened(they're not really a socialistic economy), and they're still a net food importer.So much for not starving.

They kept the government controlled media though.

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If you choose not to believe in the illusion of free will does not exist, then the same counts for happiness, pain, and all other emotions
No, because happiness does exist. I know that from personal experience. I do not know that I actually had a choice in any of my actions.
Happiness is just as much as an illusion as free wil. It's evolutionary tool to stimulate behavior that will eventually result in reproduction, or in the reproduction of other members of the species. It's as much an illusion as free will is.

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A society based on that would require the sacrifice of the individual to further the survival of others.
That's exactly what I'm advocating. Not to mention that that's the entire point of christianity, and, if I recall correctly, you're a fairly religious* christian.
I can't deny that socialism is founded on what are principally Christian values. (Some parts at least).  But well, do note what I meant is that the equitation can be reversed. If our point is to create a net increase of survival rate of humanity, or a net increase in happy people, it makes perfect sense to put a smallish amount of people through living hell, to the betterment of others.

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Music is quite important for psychological wellbeing, actually. Certainly better than smog and endless urban zones.

What constitutes an improvement to society? Because you've been switching that term around whenever you feel like it.
Alright, so I got a bit emotional there. Yes, Britney Spears makes a contribution to society. But the work she does is not any harder than what a manual laborer does, and certainly not thousands of times harder.
Might be looking at millions rather than thousands actually.

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where all starve to death, which would be the result of a terribly managed socialist system. (Socialist China is a great example of this)
Obviously most people in China didn't starve to death. And a terribly run system is going to fail no matter what. Capitalism has no special exemption from human stupidity.
Through sheer statistics, it has. It's unlikely that all the actors of the capitalist system will do something stupid at the same time, and the capitalistic system has it's own "meritocratic" survival of the fittest.
Besides, inefficiencies in production and distribution have always been part of certain socialistic systems.   

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There will always be a ruling class. Get used to it.
Well, no, not really. If you eliminate all hierarchical power, there's very little leverage for people to use to put themselves in the ruling class.
There's also very little leverage to get anything done, that requires the agreement of more than a few people.

*For A given meaning of religious, I assume yes.

Unrelated:
Quote from: World factbook
Cubans attempt to depart the island and enter the US using homemade rafts, alien smugglers, direct flights, or falsified visas
Wut?
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Sheb

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2013, 10:59:37 am »

Well, people that smuggle aliens (aka, foreigner) into the US.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2013, 11:00:59 am »

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Care to explain why Cuba isn't in a famine, then?
Oh, Great example!

It's damn hard to get famine in tropics. Yet Cuba almost managed that - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-facing-starvation-hunger-is-fuelling-an-exodus-of-desperate-refugees-writes-phil-davison-from-havana-1417691.html

Why they are not starving now? Because they are net importer of agriculture. How do you think who supplies food to them?  Capitalists...

Damn, ninjad on that....

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So only the people you care about matter? You really think that your own opinion is the sole determinant of morality?
No, but people I care about matter more
You are so white\black and put just any idea to it's absolute that I am staring to assume that you are like 15 year old

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But the work she does is not any harder than what a manual laborer does
So what? End result matters, not exhaustion. I don't care how much work was spent on making a PC, I care about if it is good or not for it's price

It's like giving olympic gold medal to the one who burned most calories, not achieved the best result
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:06:14 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sheb

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2013, 11:14:33 am »

Also, a socialist country that doesn't starve is no proof that the world would face less starvation if it was mostly socialist. Just like the fact that no one starve in Belgium is a proof that capitalism doesn't cause starvation.
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2013, 12:58:03 pm »

No, but it is proof that capitalism doesn't inevitably lead to everyone starving to death, which is what they were trying to say was the case with socialism.

And frankly, it's pretty impressive that Cuba has done as well as it has. It started as a third world country, and has had the strongest nation on earth trying to topple its government for 60 years, and yet it has a higher quality of life than most of the world. You can't say socialism never works, because it clearly did in Cuba.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2013, 01:06:12 pm »

It's more a result of large scale Sovjet development aid than socialism. Getting your oil practically free can do wonders for the economy. ((Also crashes it when the source dries up)).

Can't say that the system failed completely though. The oil shortage forced a rather economically friendly economy, and the state had the powers to create and maintain it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 01:08:47 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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Gervassen

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2013, 02:55:37 pm »

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all children act like that. Baselessly.

I didn't say all, I said they generally tend towards altruism, or at least not deliberately harming others, which is a hell of a lot better than modern behavior: http://www.pitt.edu/~toddlers/ESDL/Svetlova,etal_ToddlersProsocialBehavior.CDInPress09.pdf

There's much less to that study than you imply. There are various flaws, and what is worse, even some blatant misrepresentations of the data by the researchers in the abstract and in their conclusions.

The three tasks called "altruistic" required lending a hair-clip recently given to them to an adult with messy hair, or their favorite blanket to a "cold" adult, or their favorite toy to a sad adult... but no understanding that the adult would keep it afterward. Altruism is self-sacrifice, but children giving temporarily something that they don't need is dubiously a real sacrifice. One of these tasks, moreover, is merely giving away something that they themselves recently acquired, which is entirely a matter of easy come, easy go.

Finally, here's the part where you need to start paying attention.

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The fact that instances of costly helping in the
current study were quite low and often occurred in
response to an adult’s direct and explicit request
suggests that toddlers’ helping responses are unlikely
to be genuinely altruistic
. Altruistic motivation
appears to be a later developing phenomenon, which
may build upon the more basic prosocial motivation
emerging and developing in toddlerhood.

The study itself factually concluded one thing, and researchers tacked on an unsupported belief that altruism was "developing" from prosocial behaviours, yet the selfsame study makes clear the 30-month olds already understood the emotional needs of others in the non-costly helping task, and were willing to give items that weren't their own--but not willing to give their own items. Prosocial, yes; altruistic, consciously no. That's the whole of the actual data.

The researchers then overstretch by drawing conclusions outside their own data set. That is unforgiveable. They actually remark on ages for which they did not test. This is a bad study, and only those who superficially read abstracts could be taken in by it. It actually confirms extreme reluctance to engage in activity even remotely altruistic.

Children, by the actual data, are not altruistic. The 30 month-olds engage in at least one altruistic behaviour only in 18% of the time, and often only after directly being asked for the item. How often was that 18% just giving away the hairpin that recently was given to them? Probably a significant amount. The rest is researchers weakly defending what they wanted the data to show. Since it wasn't there, they suppose without supporting data that the magical moment of altruism comes later. They put that unsupported assertion in the abstract, and you incautiously accepted that as being a data-driven conclusion. It wasn't.

What if the real conclusion is true altruism never comes at all? Or is entirely a learned social behaviour based on calculated future reciprocity? What does that mean for human nature? For systems predicated on people naturally acting altruistic?
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2013, 03:01:25 pm »

I'm not reliant on people being entirely altruistic, I'm reliant on them not being completely selfish. It really doesn't matter if it's only because they expect benefits in return, or if its cultural. What matters it that they are concerned with something other than their own short term interests, and that's all that's necessary for people to realize that being lazy is a bad idea.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Socialism thread
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2013, 03:13:20 pm »

I understood what amuses me most in Eagle_eye, that he thinks that change of economical system can change people goals and morals to match his own ones he thinks are ideal.

Truth is that capitalism is fully capable to solve existing major problems of humanity, if demand will exist. If only few millions of Americans and Europeans cared about African starvation enough to spend a quarter of their profits to feed starving children of Africa we'd get dozens of companies fighting for that multi-billion business and looking for ways to feed African children in the most effective way. But there are no demand even with Eagle_eye's 99% of people are altruists claim.
People prefer to spend money on bear, pop star concerts, gadgets, hookers....   and that is the reason why market economy can't feed all starving, not it's ineffectiveness.

___________________________
As for Cuba it has some positives, but I'll never call  successful a country that people flee from using rafts..... Or that can't produce enough food to feed itself while being located in tropics and having average population density (Nearby Haiti and Dominican republic are net exporters of food, BTW)
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
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