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[DWC]

Well then, I guess I can completely conflate two immigrants into one generalization: One from Lebanon and one from Bangladesh. Thanks DWC!

(There could be sarcasm lurking in this post...)

I'm not saying that you can't mention it, but to banner ALL PEOPLE inside Islam as having THE SAME CULTURE (this is the ONLY point that I am addressing, one that has come up in this thread) is foolish. You cannot in good faith say "Islamic immigrants" when between 1/5th and 1/4th of the world's population fit under the banner.

They are similar enough to draw general comparisons to, same as people can say 'western culture' even though Canada and Germany are not exactly the same either. A religion is going to influence a person's/ groups values, beliefs, ethnics and worldview. How specific do you need to be to describe 'Islamic immigrants'? There are radical islamists from every country and their belief systems clash with western ideals, that's all there really is to it. This is a more fundamental disparity between Islam in general and western democratic values then say the difference between sects of Islam or denominations of Christianity, or Canadian vs American culture.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I find it odd that you complain about all of these, yet, go back a few hundred years, Christianity drew many parallels with them.

Yes... And no... Women had less rights in medieval Christian countries but not to the Muslim extent... Sex out of Marriage was shunned and women were persecuted for that but again not that severely
Rapes were (and let's be honest, are)  common during wars, but Christan Holy Texts never said - "Hey. That's okay." 

Most importantly:  For hundreds of  years church is separated from courts, no sane judge in 17th century England (France. Germany, whatever) would use Bible as a main source of the Law

But..... Even if Christianity was as bad or even worse than Islam back then... How is it related to the modern world? Racism was very common in  the past.  Should we tolerate that, too?

Give Islam a few hundred years, and it, too, might leave those behind

Maybe... But you know, Christians reformed because they were forced to reform. By protestants, secular governments, bloody revolutions...

But, of course, for many people, if it doesn't suit their morals now, it HAS to go.

Sorry, anything that advocates rape and\or creates conditions ideal for rapists don't mix with my ideals. As well as many other totalitarian "cultural traditions" and tendency to create violent terrorist cells whenever Muslim live
Yes, It has to go now, I do not want to tolerate stuff like that.

I'm not saying that you can't mention it, but to banner ALL PEOPLE inside Islam as having THE SAME CULTURE (this is the ONLY point that I am addressing, one that has come up in this thread) is foolish. You cannot in good faith say "Islamic immigrants" when between 1/5th and 1/4th of the world's population fit under the banner.

They have different cultures, but their cultures have one, huge, common trait. We can talk about Islamic cultures just fine

Every one of these (and worse) applies to Christianity as well. Maybe not the breed of Christianity that is popular in your part of the world -

If any Christian church  offers same standards it should be banned on the spot.
Besides... There are huge basic differences between Christianity and Islam. Here are little comparison:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Jesus-Muhammad.htm
That's an anti-Islam site, so it is biased, but majority of facts can't be argued, especially in the part of Jesus biography and Muhammad biography
That's role-models of believers, more important stuff than verses here and there

[Bauglir]

Check Deuteronomy 20:10-14, which doesn't take much interpretation to get to an endorsement of raping women after a successful conquest. It can just as easily be interpreted to mean they should serve as workers (since it does take a disturbing contortion of reasoning to imply that everything listed is to be used sexually), but that doesn't mean it will be. I'm skeptical that you'll find anything more concrete in the Quran, though.

It has nothing to do with the past - very few Muslims today are terrorists, but you're attacking the religion as if they were representative of it. Pointing out that atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity in the past isn't about saying it's okay, but that these don't weigh against the religion. Instead, they're the fault of a few lunatics who prefer to explain themselves as empowered by divine will instead of their own desires. They'd grasp whatever belief structure was available to them (even an atheist one, if necessary - deities aren't the only "higher power" that can be used this way). And they'd have followers who want to believe in righteous justice, but don't have the ego to declare themselves the arbiters of that justice.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

That's not from Quaran, but another Holy text:

"Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/008-smt.php#008.3371

[Sheb]

But anyway, what's your point? That the Qu'ran and assorted texts are full of despicable passage? Surely they are. But so are the Bible and the Torah. The stuff is over 1000 years old, it's hardly surprising it's full of stuff that we find disgusting nowadays.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

My problem is that they have a role model of a man that when he was asked "Hey, is it to fine to come into a women I'll rape? " Answered " Sure. "

Jesus or apostles never acted like that, even if Old Testament has some quite nasty stuff. Besides. It's not only about nasty stuff, it's also about positive ideas that neutralize nasty stuff

Good luck finding something like "Love your enemies and pray
 for those who persecute you" In Qu'ran

[Sheb]

What about Jews whose Holy Book is basically the Old Testament? Do you think Judaism is an awful thing that should be banned as well?

[MonkeyHead]

My problem is that they have a role model of a man that when he was asked "Hey, is it to fine to come into a women I'll rape? " Answered " Sure. "

Jesus or apostles never acted like that, even if Old Testament has some quite nasty stuff. Besides. It's not only about nasty stuff, it's also about positive ideas that neutralize nasty stuff

Good luck finding something like "Love your enemies and pray
 for those who persecute you" In Qu'ran

The third pillar of Islaam (5 compulsory duties that MUST be carried out by ALL muslims): Zakat: paying an alms (or charity) tax to benefit the poor and the needy. As for quotes:

Qur’an 3:31 — If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Granted, the QUr'ran suggests a strict code, but you can not suggest that the tail wags the dog in the manner you do.

As for the Bible... amongst other things, Jesus recomends murdering the children of those who commit adultry:

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.   I will strike her children dead.  Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."  (Revelation 2:22-23)

Yet most Christians (like most Muslims) do not go murdering people just as it says to in a very old book of mostly fiction.

[Frumple]

Good luck finding something like "Love your enemies and pray
 for those who persecute you" In Qu'ran

There's a good few that come pretty close.

They've got a bit of a thing against oppressors, though.

[Owlbread]

Also, Muhammad and his fellow Muslims created an Ummah (Islamic society) in which Jews, Pagans and Christians had their own religious autonomy and laws that used Islam as an arbiter between them when necessary.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

What about Jews whose Holy Book is basically the Old Testament? Do you think Judaism is an awful thing that should be banned as well?[/quote]
Judaism is quite complex issue as I do see many disturbing stuff in it (not as disturbing as Islam, but...) , but I prefer to judge by actions and I have no idea how Jews interpret their text
When I'll see Judaism terrorists and Sharia like laws in Israel I'll start to worry
Besides, Jews don't move in other countries and don't try to convert other peoples to their religion.

Qur’an 3:31 — If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Not even close... How is that related to enemies? Yep, Allah is forgiving and merciful to believers, so what? Still, Nonbelievers are vilest of animals in Allah's eyes....

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.   I will strike her children dead.  Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."  (Revelation 2:22-23)

Nice taking stuff out of context.  Adultery with whom? With one very specific women: Whore of Babylon
Besides that's not direct words of Jesus

[Sheb]

Well, I'll let you type Jewish terrorism on google for yourself. It exists, was most common before forming Israel (they had suicide bombers and shit) and they still have settlers going on random shooting sprees to clear the land of Arabs.

And the religiously-justified ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is bad enough.

But you'll notice your use of double standards. You choose to judge Islam not on what the Muslims do, but on whatever is written in the Qu'ran. Then you decide not to judge Judaism on what's written in the Torah, but on their actions.

[MonkeyHead]

What about Jews whose Holy Book is basically the Old Testament? Do you think Judaism is an awful thing that should be banned as well?

Judaism is quite complex issue as I do see many disturbing stuff in it (not as disturbing as Islam, but...) , but I prefer to judge by actions and I have no idea how Jews interpret their text
When I'll see Judaism terrorists and Sharia like laws in Israel I'll start to worry
Besides, Jews don't move in other countries and don't try to convert other peoples to their religion.

Qur’an 3:31 — If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Not even close... How is that related to enemies? Yep, Allah is forgiving and merciful to believers, so what? Still, Nonbelievers are vilest of animals in Allah's eyes....

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.   I will strike her children dead.  Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."  (Revelation 2:22-23)

Nice taking stuff out of context.  Adultery with whom? With one very specific women: Whore of Babylon
Besides that's not direct words of Jesus

Well, of course NONE of it is direct words (Bible, Koran, Torah, Bhagvad Ghita - take your pick) as its just stories written down by people many hundreds of years after events that may have not occured after many, many translations... and as for out of context? How so? Does the circumstances make the murder of children acceptable? I dont think so.

As for enemies, meh, so, not the best example, but my understanding of the quote is that it is saying "if you beleive in god, he forgives you for your sins".

What about those that Frumple posted? What you got against those? This one in particular:

"And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is [due] from Allah . Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers." (42:40)

Not so dissimilar from "any eye for an eye" really is it?

[GlyphGryph]

If any Christian church  offers same standards it should be banned on the spot.
Besides... There are huge basic differences between Christianity and Islam. Here are little comparison:

You yourself say that we should judge people by their actions, not by their texts. Christians, IN THE US, have been heavily funded religious-based execution in Africa for years now. There are a number of churches that instruct their followers to take up arms against those who violate Christian precepts.

Yes, many of the second organizations are considered criminal organizations in the US (just as Islamic terror groups are considered criminal organizations in more democratic and westernized countries), but the first are getting along just fine - apparently convincing your followers to murder those you dislike is a-ok, for US Christians, as long as they do it in another country.

Do you think it would be fair for me to tar all Christians with the same brush for that? I mean, come on, the actions are clear. Christianity is clearly a reprehensible religion based on that... right? After all, thats your culture! You're part of a culture that condones that!

Or are are you working under a double standard here? Are you a part of the same culture, because you share a religion, or not? (Assuming, of course, that you are Christian. If not, pretend!)

[Bauglir]

And, again, the argument isn't so much "Islam is great!" so much as it is "Islam doesn't really stand out as good or evil compared to other mainstream religions". What that conclusion actually means will vary from person to person, depending on their views on mainstream religions. It's the double standard that most of us are arguing about, I think.