Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[misko27]

While the debate about who was worse in the past is, unless it relates to modern issues of nationalism or multiculturalism it's probably best to leave it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

oh boy

one of these threads

i'll just

stay far away

what's safe nuclear blast distance?

i'll stay that.

I'm tempted to put a new rule in the OP:
Don't be that forumite who's only contribution is an attempt at creating a disastrous self-fulfilling prophecy.

I generally choose to realize the Bible was created by Human beings, and all their 2000 yr-old prejudices.

The explanation I've heard for the mess in the OT is that the guys writing about it only new of God's wrathful nature, whereas the Jesus-era Christians focused more on the whole good moral life part. Considering the likelihood of Jesus's [non]existence, it's a very real possibility Christianity was the product of several writers who looked at Paganism and Judaism and sought to make a better system.

This reminds me of yet another quote from Crimes and Misdemeanors.

The unique thing that happened to the early Israelites was that they conceived a God that cares. He cares but, at the same time, he also demands that you behave morally. But here comes the paradox. What’s one of the first things that that God asks? That God asks Abraham to sacrifice his only son, his beloved son, to him. In other words, in spite of millennia of efforts, we have not succeeded to create a really and entirely loving image of God. This was beyond our capacity to imagine.

[Solifuge]

Islam.

I won't participate in a farce of a thread that can't even summon the guts to mention its main worry, but so soon on the heels of Lee Rigby being beheaded with knives on a London street, there's a certain elephant in the room. Nothing can be done with such ineffectual fainted-hearted mush that goes 45 posts with nothing on-point to the real concerns in everyone's minds. I'll just say that...

This may come as a shock to you, but Islam is not something that registers on my list of concerns. I have good friends who are Muslim, I've visited a Mosque, and I've done readings from the Qurʼan. Nothing in it scares me. Nothing about the worshipers I've met and come to know has scared me. Even if we're talking about extremists, I may not agree with them, but I can understand the reasons they exist, and how they can bring themselves to do what they do.

Religious Extremism is a fear-based reaction, driven by a misguided form of Self Preservation; they are told by other members of their faith to fear that their religion and way of life is being threatened, and that desperate methods are required to "save it" from others. The violence and desperation we see in extremists are a very human reaction to an insidious lie, one that's easy for those in the throes of fear to believe.

Such a belief is difficult to combat, but warfare, deportation, equally extreme actions taken by "Anti-Muslim" hate groups, and so on will only fuel the fear that the world is against them, and that even more desperate methods are required to save themselves and their faith. You have to show these people that there's nothing to fear... that you do not want their way of life destroyed, do not wish ill upon them, and that you really do respect and value their teachings, even if you may disagree with them. For those on the fence regarding an extremist cause, it will show them that there is a place for them in the world, and that there is no need for such desperation and panic. For the most violent, militant extremists among them, it will reveal them to be the misguided fools and wrongdoers to their followers, and to the rest of the world.

Islam is not a problem, but a religion. Extremism is not a problem, but a symptom of fear, isolation, and persecution. It sounds corny as hell, but the way to cure this symptom is through tolerance, efforts to understand them, and through open communication that reaches across geographic and language boundaries (such as through online communities like this one).

[Owlbread]

I think Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and all religions are piles of tripe but I do find mosques and Islamic art very aesthetically pleasing. I love visiting mosques, one of my favourite things about having a holiday in an Islamic country. I love hearing the call to prayer, love hearing Qur'an readings. I also find the teachings and stories within the Qur'an very interesting. That's about as far as my opinions on Islam go though, I'm afraid.

I agree with Solifuge in saying that it doesn't register on my list of concerns. Obviously the terrible things done in the name of Islam does register on my list of concerns, but that isn't the religion itself that I've got a huge problem with.

[misko27]

I think Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and all religions are piles of tripe.

Shh, wait do You hear? It is as if the voices of billions of people cried out in indignation, and were suddenly silenced.

Seriously, there is nothing, not a single segment, of all the religions, and their advised ways of life, from forgiveness of all people, to rising above hardship, then you find admirable? I'm sorry, but the implication I'm getting from that is some one who could stand to realize religious tolerance isn't just for the religious.

There are crazies who say atheists are bigoted against religion, don't make them right.

[misko27]

I think Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and all religions are piles of tripe.

Shh, wait do You hear? It is as if the voices of billions of people cried out in indignation, and were suddenly silenced.

Seriously, there is nothing, not a single segment, of all the religions, and their advised ways of life, from forgiveness of all people, to rising above hardship, then you find admirable? I'm sorry, but the implication I'm getting from that is some one who could stand to realize religious tolerance isn't just for the religious.

There are crazies who say atheists are bigoted against religion, don't make them right.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Tolerance does not equal approval. Pretty much all of the "admirable" qualities of religion are things that are basic elements of any functional society, and are far outweighed by the evils it condones if not demands.

[Vector]

*moop moop moop*

Just back to remind you that not all of us religious people are part of an organized religion >__________>

[misko27]

Tolerance does not equal approval. Pretty much all of the "admirable" qualities of religion are things that are basic elements of any functional society, and are far outweighed by the evils it condones if not demands.

This does not negate the fact there is a under-current of the same things people accuse religious people of (talking down is a big one) and I don't like it.

Mainly, because all of my friends are atheist, and it sucks being perpetually silent while people decide to be so right, with everyone who else an ignorant person who believes what their told (I've encountered more then my fair share). So sorry if I over reacted a bit.

[penguinofhonor]

As an atheist, meeting a Franciscan monk rid me of any anti-Religion feelings I had.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I have good friends who are Muslim, I've visited a Mosque, and I've done readings from the Qurʼan. Nothing in it scares me.

I know some quite good people who are devoted followers of Communism. And I read Marx, nothing is scare here. Yet Communism is dangerous as hell and I am dreaming of day when it will be banned all over the world

Also, Nazi party promoted many quite good things during it's rule: Family values, high work ethics and so on. I am sure that wast majority of Germans were great guys during the period 

Religious Extremism is a fear-based reaction, driven by a misguided form of Self Preservation; they are told by other members of their faith to fear that their religion and way of life is being threatened, and that desperate methods are required to "save it" from others.

Yep, Muslim terrorists act in self preservation. But No, it's not misjudged at all. Country can be either liberal-democratic or Islamic. You can't mix human rights and sharia laws. Only one can exist in the same place. Muslims understand that very well and fight with all methods aviable

For those on the fence regarding an extremist cause, it will show them that there is a place for them in the world, and that there is no need for such desperation and panic.

I'd rather not give place in the world to regimes like Taliban or Saudi Arabian one that treat women worse than slaves

It sounds corny as hell, but the way to cure this symptom is through tolerance, efforts to understand them, and through open communication that reaches across geographic and language boundaries

Tolerance can work nicely if that is two sided process... Being tolerant to the guys that call you vilest of animals is a suicide route.

[Bauglir]

Being tolerant to the guys that call you vilest of animals is a suicide route.

That terrorists believe this is a big part of why they're terrorists.

[Max White]

It is so easy to be tolerant of people you agree with. So easy to endorse freedom of speech when you support what is being said. So easy to promote multiculturalism when you need to defend your own culture. So easy to love secularism when it is defending your church.

And yet for some people these ideals turn to shit at the first real test.

[Neonivek]

It is so easy to be tolerant of people you agree with. So easy to endorse freedom of speech when you support what is being said. So easy to promote multiculturalism when you need to defend your own culture. So easy to love secularism when it is defending your church.

And yet for some people these ideals turn to shit at the first real test.

I find most people to be very hypocritical of their support of free speech and other cultures anyway.

A lot of people do not want "free speech" they want freedom of their speech.

[MonkeyHead]

This takes us back to the consequences issue I made in the other thread. Many, many people (often with extremist veiws, spoting off quite challenging concepts are the first ones to foam at the mouth demanding that they are not allowed to be challenged when someone does challenge them) do not realise at all that free speech is a 2 way street, and either nothing is sacred and up for critique, or nobody is allowed a say on anything.

[Max White]

Well I get the feeling most people don't actually know that many things that we see as pillars of society are in fact a two way street.
It just kind of dawned on me that nowhere in my formal educated were political issues like this ever raised. We had a mandatory English class, in a country that doesn't technically have an official language, but we never had a political class.