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[shadenight123]

ah, i see the point.
They all share the pay of the rent then.
In which case you'd be right. Of course, that is if they are roommates.
But even roommates have laws that they decide and don't force upon the others. If more roommates want the paint changed, it's fine. If only one does, and the starts painting before the others can tell him no...that's wrong.

PS: this is completely inconsequential to the discussion, but have I ever said how much I love you guys? (All of you). Having this sort of discussion, with the clear-cut concepts of trying to understand and maintaining civil talk is something I can't find even among my friends. You're the best, all of you.
*end of soppy lines*

[Vector]

All those Bible quotes refer specifically to apostates (ie. people who used to belong to the Jewish faith, but then left to follow other gods). I'm not saying that this teaching isn't despicable, because it is. But Islam teaches the same thing, AND they add the commandment to kill ANY and ALL non-Muslims on top of that. Sure Christianity teaches some evil, but Islam teaches that same evil plus an extra, heaping topping of super-evil!

Now, how do you know that?

If you're a Christian, you've been trained in hermeneutics so that you can interpret your book.  I, as a non-believer, cannot interpret it the "right" way.  I don't have that training!  So to me, it says "kill all non-Christians."  I just don't have the historical context.

I believe you're capable of extrapolation.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

GlyphGryph, yep, Deuteronomy is quite harsh, but note the word Israel here... It's more about treason and breaking the deal with God than about not believing, It's - "if fellow Israeli betrays God kill him" not - "convert all other nations to your religion and kill the everyone who doesn't convert" like Islam demands

Also, This is old laws. Something canceled by Christ (not exactly canceled but I don't want to go into theology dispute here)
Try to find something like that in the New Testament, something more important for Christians. You should agree that Christans ignore all those laws from Deuteronomy or else we would see much, much more stonings around

[Vector]

And are we to believe that the Koran is homogenized?

Seriously, I don't know the Koran well enough.  But I don't think anyone else here does, either; nor do they understand that they're engaging to me in apologia.  To me, they're both just books, and both of them advocate a lot of weird stuff if you look at them without any historical context.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Also, This is old laws. Something canceled by Christ (not exactly canceled but I don't want to go into theology dispute here)

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Odd way to say something is canceled.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

All those Bible quotes refer specifically to apostates (ie. people who used to belong to the Jewish faith, but then left to follow other gods). I'm not saying that this teaching isn't despicable, because it is. But Islam teaches the same thing, AND they add the commandment to kill ANY and ALL non-Muslims on top of that. Sure Christianity teaches some evil, but Islam teaches that same evil plus an extra, heaping topping of super-evil!

Now, how do you know that?

If you're a Christian, you've been trained in hermeneutics so that you can interpret your book.  I, as a non-believer, cannot interpret it the "right" way.  I don't have that training!  So to me, it says "kill all non-Christians."  I just don't have the historical context.

I believe you're capable of extrapolation.

I am not a Christian, although I was raised as one. But I am able to read, whether or not I am trained in hermeneutics. For example, when a verse says that a person has "transgressed his covenant," what else could that mean, but that they had a covenant in the first place? You cannot transgress a covenant that you never made.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 may sound similar to the quotes I gave from the Quran, but, if you actually read the whole verses, rather than the little snippet that Glyph provided, you'll see that it is actually part of a promise that certain Isrealites willingly agreed to. "And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman." Basically they are saying, "We promise to always follow God. If we ever cease to uphold this promise, kill us."

That is VERY different from Allah commanding his followers, "Kill anyone who doesn't believe in me."

To me, they're both just books, and both of them advocate a lot of weird stuff if you look at them without any historical context.

To me, historical context doesn't matter as much as you suggest, because the people who follow these books claim that they still apply to our day. A book that teaches that you should stone apostates teaches that you should stone apostates. The fact that the book is old, and maybe that was more morally acceptable back then does matter one sausage if people today look to that book as though it were still a valid source of moral guidance.

[ggamer]

oh boy

one of these threads

i'll just

stay far away

what's safe nuclear blast distance?

i'll stay that.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Also, This is old laws. Something canceled by Christ (not exactly canceled but I don't want to go into theology dispute here)

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Odd way to say something is canceled.

As I said, I don't want to start a theology discussion... Yep, sin is punishable by death and that was never canceled but Christan Dogma says that Christ died for us, "absorbing " those sins. That's a basis of Christianity after all.


And why should we look at texts when we can look at actions? How many Christians blew themself up with the words "For Jesus!"? How many of them are supported and heroised by millions of "moderate" Christians? How many Buddists or Hinduists did the same?

And don't say that it is Arabian nationalism  stuff... You'll see the same in India, Russia, Nigeria, basically in every country where Muslims are abundant but other religions still present.

[misko27]

I generally choose to realize the Bible was created by Human beings, and all their 2000 yr-old prejudices.

Seriously, there is some really really weird shit in their if you choose to take it literally. And, to be honest, peopel who take it literally sound crazy (most US Evangelicals do).
Example A:

Deuteronomy 23:1 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

Example B:

Genesis 38:8-10 Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

Example C:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

I can get you the King James Version if you please, but it's still the same thing.

Seriously people. One does not simply take the Bible literally.

oh boy

one of these threads

i'll just

stay far away

what's safe nuclear blast distance?

i'll stay that.

Depends entirely on the blast strength, bomb-design, height of detonation, definition of "safe" level of radiation, local topography, position on the Electromagnetic Sphere, Current Wind Direction and Air Pressure, Personal resistance to Gamma radiatoin, etc.

[Vector]

Also... isn't the Torah pretty much the Old Testament?  Or mostly reliant on it?

(Read between the lines.)

And why should we look at texts when we can look at actions? How many Christians blew themself up with the words "For Jesus!"? How many of them are supported and heroised by millions of "moderate" Christians? How many Buddists or Hinduists did the same?

Remember the Crusades?  Both Bible and Quran have existed unchanged since then.

And don't say that it is Arabian nationalism  stuff... You'll see the same in India, Russia, Nigeria, basically in every country where Muslims are abundant but other religions still present.

That's happening right now.  In the Middle Ages, the Middle East was a paragon of peace, tranquility, religious tolerance, and science, while up north the Europeans were doing the whole, well, Middle Ages thing.

So, is it inherently about the book?

Seriously, there is some really really weird shit in their if you choose to take it literally. And, to be honest, peopel who take it literally sound crazy (most US Evangelicals do).

Kinda like... fundamentalist Muslims!

[GlyphGryph]

Now, I will say that as written the Koran is actually a good deal more violent than the New Testament.

But Conversion by the Sword has a long history in both religions, irrespective of what their texts say. Tolerance of other religions (excluding those who turn AWAY from the religion) was actually more common, historically, in Muslim countries - they were generally more concerned about preventing their followers from straying from the faith than the Christian countries (Spain, especially) were about making sure non-Christians simply did not exist. I say generally here, because there's plenty in both directions.

See, the issue is, people are people, and people have never cared so much about what their holy books say as much as what they can benefit from claiming it says.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

That's happening right now.  In the Middle Ages, the Middle East was a paragon of peace, tranquility, religious tolerance, and science, while up north the Europeans were doing the whole, well, Middle Ages thing.

What now? This is the same Middle Ages that saw two Mugal invasions of the Middle East, two Turkic invasions of the Middle East, an almost non-stop 700 YEAR WAR between the Byzantine Empire and the various Arab/Mugal/Turkish nations, not to mention decades-long rebellions, civil wars, etc within each of these nations.

"Peace" and "tranquility" have almost never been words that could be used to describe the Middle East... at least not with a straight face.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Remember the Crusades?  Both Bible and Quran have existed unchanged since then.

You mean that Crusades that finally stroke Islam back after they forceislamizied dozens of Christian  countries? After they sacked Rome? Unfortunalely crusades started way to late... Now, Europe is repeating that mistake once again.

In the Middle Ages, the Middle East was a paragon of peace, tranquility, religious tolerance, and science, while up north the Europeans were doing the whole, well, Middle Ages thing.

Middle east had quite a lot of dynastic wars (stuff happens when you have hundreds of children) and conquests... As for religious tolerance say that to Zoroastrians

[MonkeyHead]

Remember the Crusades?  Both Bible and Quran have existed unchanged since then.

You mean that Crusades that finally stroke Islam back after they forceislamizied dozens of Christian  countries? After they sacked Rome? Unfortunalely crusades started way to late... Now, Europe is repeating that mistake once again.

In the Middle Ages, the Middle East was a paragon of peace, tranquility, religious tolerance, and science, while up north the Europeans were doing the whole, well, Middle Ages thing.

Middle east had quite a lot of dynastic wars (stuff happens when you have hundreds of children) and conquests... As for religious tolerance say that to Zoroastrians

After those very same countries were forced into Christianity? Islamic/Moorish Spain was possibly the place to be in Dark Age Europe if you wanted a decent life.

[ibot66]

I'd just like to point out that the Middle Ages where not a nice time, and that nobody's hands were clean of atrocities on the same level, if possibly not scale, as the holocaust. It was an era of brutal bloodshed and butchery, and everyone partook in it, because if you didn't, it was your head at the end of a pike.