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[MoLAoS]

So I am currently working on a game based on Majesty and Emperor and KoDP and I have a tough decision.

Basically you get some special citizens, its a city builder sort of, from high level housing who have a set of stats. And you have Orders, basically what guilds were in Majesty but more. They need educated citizens with appropriate stats to make powerful heroes.
Citizens can be selected from within a radius simulating them being picked from the cities built around the Orders.
I am trying to decide how to select educated citizens. I have 3 choices more or less.

I can let the player select an educated citizen from a list of nearby educated people after they hit the recruit button.
I can let the building select by checking the stats that that Order tends to need even though the player decides to hire.
I can let the Order decide when and who to hire and for what purpose using AI.

There are a few things to consider when picking the best citizen. I'll give an example:
A mage guild needs citizens with high spirit, mana and other resource pools, and high potency, a bonus to spell effects.
However they need a leader with high research skills/stats to learn new knowledge and possibly acquire artifacts.
You need a few crafting skill citizens to produce the special goods of the Order.

Now this presents a problem if you don't let the player pick who to recruit. The player loses some control over whether they want to focus on a particular Order's magic, getting heroes powerful in special ways, or go more magitech with creating lots of magical artifacts and supplying magical services to other heroes like enchanting or potions. But its more of a simulation when the Order decides on its own, and it could be randomized or triggered so its not the same each game.

There is also the issue of the multi-discipline possibilities. Suppose you multi class your pyromancers to hydromancy. Now you have access to steam and water magic. But what if water magic requires way more spirit and less potency but your pyromancy Order only check for pyromancer stats. Or any other arbitrary reason.

And god forbid you multi class to some sort of combat or crafting and the AI picks low stats in those areas.

So I ask you, in a game at least partially about simulation ala Majesty, how much value should be given to automated behavior over fun and significant player decisions?

[Alkhemia]

Well if you are making a game and not just a simulator fun should come first right?
you could always have it automated unless the player says no like say distant worlds.

Just to clarify I have no game making/coding knowledge so I'm just putting my input as someone who plays a lot of games.

[Nirur Torir]

So I am currently working on a game based on Majesty and Emperor and KoDP

Great!

I like a mix of options 2 and 3: Normally the guilds hire on their own, optionally with a focus set by the player (Focus on mages good at high damage, at staying in a fight longer, at crafting ...) The player gets a button to subsidize the guild to immediately hire and train someone at any time (guild's choice of who); it should be expensive enough that it's not the main way to get more people in the guilds. Bonus if the player can set a preferred recruit quality per order, perhaps letting one have the best recruits while another trains all the leftovers as meatshields or something.

[MoLAoS]

Only 8 minutes to respond to one of my crazy vague design threads? What kind of place is this? Takes hours at most places and its all posts saying how vague I am and how no one can answer a question with that little info.

I kinda wanna keep to letting a player recruit and do upgrades and such to keep in the line of Majesty. I actually would like to have a separate game that focuses much more on simulation but I have limited time and work alone.

Nirur, do you have a particular reason for your preference? Aside from DF players' natural inclination to simulation.

I should note that there are several other aspects of Orders. In this specific game unlike Majesty you don't just have 1 unit with a couple attacks. A guild has a series of capabilities that is focused in one area. But they can gain various other capabilities as well from various sources. And you have various upgrades and crafting and such. If I was going sim I would probably want to automate all that stuff instead of Majesty style player decisions and that's a lot of work. Especially if I don't want it to suck.

[Gamerlord]

For multiclassing your orders and more control over the quality of your 'heroes', try a slider system. Have all the stats lined up in a settings section for the building. Have each stat have a slider with two bars, one that limits the minimum level of that stat and one that limits the max. Any 'heroes' being trained would need to meet these requirements. This would allow players to not only keep weaklings out but also to make sure that for example, a character with excellent stats all around doesn't get stuck somewhere where he is useless because his stats might not be used.

[Shadowlord]

Assuming that the Orders each have their own leaders (or that the player could replace them and appoint new ones), consider this possibility: the player could provide a particular Order with contracts to produce things like trained pyromancers or wizards trained in both pyromancy and hydromancy, or enchanted items, or whatever, and that Order's leader would make sure they had the appropriate citizens to fulfill these contracts. Without contracts, they would try to hire their services out to others, or fill a niche which appears profitable, or something.

If that seems feasible, you could have both simulation and control.

(I think it might be more interesting if the leaders weren't easily replaceable by the player, and different leaders were more likely to side with different factions or what have you, so some may be less likely to work with you and more likely to work with your enemies, leaving you with a reason to potentially try to have one assassinated)

[Knight of Fools]

I think one way to look at it is this: Do you really need all of those different skills? If no one but a magician is going to use pyromancy and hydromancy, then why bother having separate skills in a game that's more about simulation on a broad scale? Does it put too much of an emphasis on magic, or do you have to develop the same amount of game play around stealth and combat heroes? Sure, it's a great RPG idea that creates a lot of variety between characters, and makes each character unique. Is it really worth it in an RTS game, though?

This is a decision best made early in development, but it's a worthwhile one to consider, even if you're set on having a broad range of skills that characters can have.


Failing that, you should go with the option that keeps it as simple as possible while allowing the broadest range of choices. Here's how I'd do it without taking the myriad skills out: Have everything in that guild depend on the highest skill of the leader you choose near the beginning. This allows for some specialization and variety between games.

So, if you chose a mage who focused on having a high mana pool, he could make a College of Meditation. If you decide that you want to branch out into fire magic, you would need to train your leader so that he could master the necessary skills. This could be accomplished by leveling him up through adventuring or studying. Studying would require a significant investment to buy all the necessary books and tutoring expenses. You could summon mystical teachers (Costing more money), or you could go visit a master in a faraway land (Costing more time). In turn, the leader would train all of his underlings in the skills that he's learned. Perhaps not everyone will master the new skill, but in the least they'll learn enough to passably teach someone else should the mantle of leader ever fall on them.

This allows the player to choose an initial skill set for people trained at that place, but also allows them to branch out afterwards. Those who happen to be skilled in other magics that visit the Order will be trained in the new skill, and may be able to leave some of the knowledge of their own skills with the Order (Making it slightly easier/cheaper to develop new skill sets for your Order).


It'd be a little bit of work, but not nearly as extreme as getting rid of the skill or making it fully automated. The player just chooses the leader, what that leader learns, and then little thugs get pumped out into the meat grinder battlefield.

[MoLAoS]

That is actually sort of what its like in my head so far. The skills of the order are based on the leader's research.

There are several basic Orders with special skills. And multiple ones involve magical stuff. Not all of them are wizards per say. In theory you would have at least 5 or 6 if not more. And they would play pretty differently depending on multi classing.

Stealth heroes tend not to make sense in this kind of game, but there is some variance among combat heroes, ranged and melee.

You actually have a main character representing you that is directly controllable. And he has a ton of customization. So tons of different magic, combat, research, crafting, and diplomacy options are going to be in the game with associated stats. Its mostly a matter of how much of that content bleeds down to the AI heroes.

There is a lot going on besides books actually. Map objects can define the direction of an Order by offering bonus powers if you build the right Order on or near them.

Also there is map object interaction. Actually since I'm making an engine as well as a game I may push weather and map interaction and such back to a later project.

Ideally I don't want the different Orders to bleed together. So magical groups will have distinct identities.

[Zangi]

If I may suggest... if you are torn between 'player control' versus 'AI automation'... why not have both?

Example:
New setting in Options
Choosing Citizen Recruit for Order: Manual / Automatic / Give Suggestion(Bonus Option)

Player has control over how much control they have over the recruiting process.  The suggestion one highlights what the AI would have picked for you.  Of course, you are not limited to just this...
(Idea is similar to implementation in Distant Worlds... a space 4x.)


I am a fan of personally choosing and building up my own minions.  Something like X-Com in that regard I guess...

[MoLAoS]

Yeah, I might go with that. Probably a choice of option 1 or 2 since 3 requires so much work to add. Personally I'm also a fan of picking, at least for this project.

[Nirur Torir]

Nirur, do you have a particular reason for your preference? Aside from DF players' natural inclination to simulation.

Less micromanagement mainly. After about my tenth game, I'd be getting tired of sifting through potential recruits looking for a good match that isn't better off somewhere else. It will probably be fine with a good AI hiring system and/or an easy way to see at a glance which guilds suit their strengths.

[MoLAoS]

10 games? Jesus, that's something like 40-120 hours.

I don't feel like there is a lot of micro. You wouldn't recruit more than 100 heroes or so in an 8 hour game. I think having optional AI hiring should cut down on the clicking/checking for people who don't want to manage too much, you will probably get weaker Orders going with the AI though. It just can't be as smart as a person.

[Zangi]

Or as crazy...

Order of Muscle Bound Earth Wizardry.

[MoLAoS]

Eh earth mages always get stereotyped as strong. Be crazier.

[ank]

If i may suggest something crazy, why not pick the leader of the order, and let him pick the recruits, according to his skills.
After all, why did you hire this guy if you are gonna do his work for him?