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[Scoops Novel]

Not really sure what that is all directed to either. He means people shouldn't be discussing men's rights or other 'outliers' because they don't matter or something?

No need to fixate on "feminazi's" or MRA fuckwads. It's not going anywhere.

Xantalos, refer to my edited post.

[Inarius]

I think sexism is nearly as powerful against men than against women. The "man is strong/rich/tough/do man's stuff" and "women are sensible/sweet/dependent/do woman's stuff" cliché is still present. Well, in France, it is true. Perhaps less in Paris than elsewhere, but (and I don't live in Paris) it is quite present.

BUT

"Sexism" is heavier on women because today, we are more or less all forced to work, and live alone and find people to live with, etc.etc.
For men, it's easier to live in this because a man who -for example- is having a lot of partners is positively viewed. Not for women.
I do understand that a man can suffer from sexism if, for example, he considers that a woman has to earn less than him (even unconsciously) and that it is not the case. Perhaps it's nothing, but someday one of his friends, or at work, somebody will tell him, and he have unhappy thoughts. But most of the time it is NOT the case. And a man who would want to be a ballet or sewing will still be mocked. Not openly. But mocked.

It's like anti-white racism in white countries. It happens, but....but...much seldom.

However, for women it's a bit harder, because for many things we always have to prove that we are competent every time we meet someone, if you live out the boundaries. And nowadays, most women have to work, so apart from a few domains (social, care, health) the presence of women is not evident.

Try to go in a hardware store or discussing about computers (hardcore videogames such as DF ^^). A "boyish" woman can, perhaps.
I obviously like women stuff, but also very male things. If you try to be out of the invisible borders, you will be QUESTIONED. You are not where you are supposed to be. For people who have a strong personality, it won't be a problem. But for the weak, they will suffer, or they will give up. Men, as women.

Sexism is everywhere, even in us.

[Neonivek]

I think sexism is nearly as powerful against men than against women

At the same time though if we just stop thinking of men and women as one super group and started thinking of them in subsets and individuals. You will see instances on both sides where sexism is extremely powerful or not powerful at all.

It is why sexism towards men doesn't get that sort of brush off for me. Sure women as a whole have it a lot worse, but -some- men do not have it any better.

"It's like anti-white racism in white countries. It happens, but....but...much seldom."

We had a race riot in my country motivated basically by just that.

---
EDIT: WAIT nearly as powerful? UGH reading comprehension fail!

[Ogdibus]

.

[DWC]

@Inarius Yeah agreed, that's probably the crux of the issue, these 'gender roles' and such things are ingrained in society and I don't expect people to pretend like they don't notice when people go outside those invisible borders. You can just try to encourage people to have an open mind and tolerate it without making a big deal about it. Men are subject to more discrimination just as much as women, they are always seen as less trustworthy and more threatening then women for example and conviction rates, sentencing and judgement in civil suits reflect this. Easier to see men as the 'bad guy' in a situation then with a woman.

Then again, I think this mentality of people goes beyond just racism and sexism as well. People are prejudice about everything and are quick to make assumptions about other people. People like to categorize others and assume certain traits almost instantly and this basic mentality is what manifests into sexism and racism and all the other isms. People should probably be reminded to try and give strangers the benefit of the doubt and not leap to characterizations from superficial attributes. Good luck affecting that kind of change though, it seems entirely entrenched and universal with people.

@ Novel

Ok I see what you are saying, the femnazis and their counterparts are a fringe minority and don't need any more attention and are largely irrelevant. Like dragging up the westboro baptists or some random cult in a discussion about religion or something.

[Scoops Novel]

I think sexism is nearly as powerful against men than against women

At the same time though if we just stop thinking of men and women as one super group and started thinking of them in subsets and individuals. You will see instances on both sides where sexism is extremely powerful or not powerful at all.

It is why sexism towards men doesn't get that sort of brush off for me. Sure women as a whole have it a lot worse, but -some- men do not have it any better.

"It's like anti-white racism in white countries. It happens, but....but...much seldom."

We had a race riot in my country motivated basically by just that.

---
EDIT: WAIT nearly as powerful? UGH reading comprehension fail!

Which country, Neonivek? It does bring to mind an interesting question, however. If women were not to expect such gender roles from men (though i realise there's much more leeway here), how would the effect ripple over to women?

[Neonivek]

Canada >_>

[Scoops Novel]

I have a question about men, now; I've noted, when it was brought up amongst the youth, that the occasional (idealized, as you'd expect) wish for a fight wasn't uncommon, and i myself would jump at the chance to attend some introductory martial arts classes that involved some, if only for the exercise and idea of pitted wits. I remember reading elsewhere on the net about such thoughts, often ensconced in complaints about our society's tendency to occasionally extreme caution, about a wish for bluntness. Have you noticed this? Is it something you've occasionally thought yourself?

Canada >_>

Can you give me more details? I trust you understand why. It may well get worse.

[Neonivek]

It may well get worse.

Naw not really. The racial tension where it happened has gone from anti-white to anti-immigrant (by second generation immigrants).

It was rather incredulous that the riot happened in the first place.

[Scoops Novel]

Vector, thank you, and you've given me a good idea as to why those who are aware do something or do not. However, i think it would be a good step to identify the mindset of the women you mentioned who do idolize them rather then be disgusted, the ones who buy the gossip magazines, the one's who pay attention to fashion, particularly today's young ones. The kind of women in crowds like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xymjDyGIvQ4.

It may well get worse.

Naw not really. The racial tension where it happened has gone from anti-white to anti-immigrant (by second generation immigrants)

Details, I'm begging you.

[Neonivek]

I really don't know the details. It happened in Toronto and was mostly instigated by racial tensions.

[Scoops Novel]

I really don't know the details. It happened in Toronto and was mostly instigated by racial tensions.

Well, where'd you hear about it? As for why it may well get worse, i was talking overall, rather then just Canada. Depends on climate change, distribution of technology and economics.

[Vector]

So what is it with MRA's that make them such morally reprehensible fuckwads? Is there a good example somebody could point to?

I'm not willing to wade through this place again to verify that it's still just as bad as it used to be, but take a look, I guess.


EDIT: Ah-ha, here we go.

They used to have a thread that was just quotations about how women are pretty much animals, but this is just as good.

[DJ]

The "man is strong/rich/tough/do man's stuff" and "women are sensible/sweet/dependent/do woman's stuff" cliché is still present.

The man side of the cliche isn't that much better. A man is basically his job. That's fine and dandy if you're a lawyer or a doctor, but most people aren't. If a man is flipping burgers or something like that, he's worthless. If he's unemployed, he's worse than worthless, he's a burden and the people around him won't hesitate to point that out. Now, given the current economy with it's rampant unemployment (though I guess USA is better than EU here), especially among young people, you can imagine just how great it is to be a young man in our society.

[Hár]

Ah-ha, here we go.

Uh... That's an underwhelming example that appears to be a small internet forum, not an advocacy group for social policy. Next you'll be linking /r9k/ and claiming it as the largest MRA. I could very easily find a web forum of jaded women making hyperbolic and offensive remarks about men.