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[Scoops Novel]

I'll say the question of why she wouldn't say anything is apt, and i suggest we leave it there.

[Vector]

*shrug*

But this usually isn't the problem, Max White.  (I don't recommend reading the comments)

Also, look at this one.  It is better.

[Max White]

See now why do you think I'm assuming the girl is lying?
Ok, perhaps she honestly changed her mind half way through, but like I said, I'm treating the situation as a hypothetical, and all points are 100% true. The guy had no way to know. It isn't his fault.

If a guy walked into a building and saw what he assumed to be an elevator, it is reasonable for him to press the button next to it. If that button actually caused the elevator to drop and kill everybody inside, but there was no way to know, is it his fault? No, it is not! So why is it that men are expected to read minds when it comes to sex?

[Xantalos]

See now why do you think I'm assuming the girl is lying?
Ok, perhaps she honestly changed her mind half way through, but like I said, I'm treating the situation as a hypothetical, and all points are 100% true. The guy had no way to know. It isn't his fault.

If a guy walked into a building and saw what he assumed to be an elevator, it is reasonable for him to press the button next to it. If that button actually caused the elevator to drop and kill everybody inside, but there was no way to know, is it his fault? No, it is not! So why is it that people are expected to read minds when it comes to sex?

FTFY

[PanH]

I'm pretty sure that even with a sign "Don't push the red button !", people would still do it :-/

[Vector]

You're assuming that she doesn't see the obvious thing of "I said nothing and he kept going, and now I will report him" as her not having a leg to stand on.  Like... I genuinely think that most people aren't all that stupid.  I don't think women expect men to be mind-readers.

I dunno, I've had experiences where I made grumbling noises and moved folks' hands away and so on and I learned that that simply wasn't explicit enough, and women in general know that they couldn't possibly bring something like that to court, and that they would be expected to not even be angry or frustrated over it.  We share around rape stories.  We talk about all the sexual harassment we deal with.  Often we commiserate over attempts to report rapes and harassment to the police, and how frickin' futile it is (I have a friend who would literally have to get the guy to admit to it in a wiretapped conversation before it could be brought to court, even though he raped her repeatedly and beat her for a few years.  This is in frickin' California).  So we know better than that.

(Usually)

[Loud Whispers]

I'm pretty sure that even with a sign "Don't push the red button !", people would still do it :-/

Now why would you make it a red button?

I think it says a lot when nearly every button on the underground is green or blue, never red. Something very specific about red buttons that demands pressing.

[ed boy]

Based on how you tell it, ed boy, it sounds like you only heard Laddie's part of the story (Unless Lassie literally told you "no, I didn't do anything to express a change of heart," in which case, uh, yuck).  So I'd say that based on what was said... look, based on my experience of these things, I'd assume that he was lying or being misleading of the facts (seriously?  "I changed my mind but I didn't change anything at all, now please kick him out of school?"  That just sounds weird.  And evil.).  But otherwise, no, I'd say it's pretty clear that he couldn't even be reasonably expected to ask if everything was okay and if they should keep going.  So yeah, sticky situation...

I actually heard Lassie's side first, then Laddie. Her memory goes to shit when she has alcohol, and when she told me about it, she told me that she remembered the early stages when everything was going fine and dandy, and the later stages when she was unhappy, but did not recall the transition between the two. I asked her if she told Laddie about it, and she said that she didn't remember.

Laddie had no idea that anything was wrong until he was being interrogated about what happened. Either he did not notice anything, or he's much better at acting than I thought. He's much better at handling his drink than Lassie, so his account of the night was more detailed. I'm also more willing to trust Laddie's story because it lines up more with what the others who were there said about the events of that night.

Also, look at this one.  It is better.

I have a bit of a problem with that graph - its falsely accused section only includes those who are reported to the police. Not only are rapists who are not reported to the police not included, a false accusation doesn't have to go to the police to ruin someone's life. In the incident I previously mentioned, Lassie did not report it because her only options were to drop it or take it all the way to court, and there would be no way of proving in court that she did not consent when drunk.

[Vector]

Oh, well... if they're both drunk and she doesn't even remember what happened, then that creates more problems =(

I'd just cast that in a gray area and keep an eye on both of them in the future.  Not much else you can do about it.


As for your second point, about the graph, I figured that out a bit after posting--there's a lot of debate in the comments section, too, which I think is worth reading vis-a-vis methodological questions and so on.

[scriver]

But Max, how does him not realising she was no longer consenting make it not-rape? Like I said above, according to what we've been told, rape happened. Him not understanding that the situation had then doesn't change what she was experiencing at the time. We could be arguing about whether or not him not having the full picture makes it "his fault", but you must realise that this is a separate question from "was it rape?". Hence the why I said that "is he a rapist in every sense of the word?" might be a more fitting question above.

[Scoops Novel]

Outside of an epiphany I'm not catching from Xantolos's post, on the basis nobody, if this is true, blames the guy, i suggest we focus on the second half of Vector's post.

Vector, why and when would you say sexism is played to by woman? It's fairly obvious it happens, but I'd like to know more on why, and how they're perceived by women. I find it strange how at least in the youth they appear to be seen as idols rather then as subjects of pity. Is there a break off point between the perception of this in teens/20's and adults?

[Xantalos]

Outside of an epiphany I'm not catching from Xantolos's post

I was just being nitpicky.

[Max White]

I'm pretty sure that even with a sign "Don't push the red button !", people would still do it :-/

I'm not sure if you totally understand how these metaphor things work, but that was basically the equivalent of "Well if she had of told him to stop, he would have kept going anyway!"
You do understand just how spiteful and irrational that is, right?

Should an uninformed man be guilty of the elevator murder just because have in the past pushed the button while informed, but he himself was not informed?

But Max, how does him not realising she was no longer consenting make it not-rape? Like I said above, according to what we've been told, rape happened. Him not understanding that the situation had then doesn't change what she was experiencing at the time. We could be arguing about whether or not him not having the full picture makes it "his fault", but you must realise that this is a separate question from "was it rape?". Hence the why I said that "is he a rapist in every sense of the word?" might be a more fitting question above.

Rape is sex you do not consent to, not sex you do not enjoy. Currently all given evidence beyond speculation is that she consented.

And it is very important that we keep to this definition, otherwise "She enjoyed it!" is an actual argument, and that is morally grotesque.

[Scoops Novel]

Outside of an epiphany I'm not catching from Xantolos's post

I was just being nitpicky.

Ah, now i see your edit. Never mind, good point.

[Vector]

Vector, why and when would you say sexism is played to by woman? It's fairly obvious it happens, but I'd like to know more on why, and how they're perceived by women. I find it strange how at least in the youth they appear to be seen as idols rather then as subjects of pity. Is there a break off point between the perception of this in teens/20's and adults?

Wait, people who are raped are seen as idols?  Since when?

I think some young women like to lie and make a messy drama of things for fun, and don't think through all the consequences; some of these women have experienced horrible crap, and no longer know how to acquire attention the normal way.  I have a friend like this, who is kind of... mixed up and messed up.  Like, really, really fucked up, and we had to have a conversation about why convincing me that her current boyfriend is hitting her isn't okay (because she has friends who will act on that information and make him as miserable as possible, and because it's muddying the waters).

I think women generally see these folks with disgust.  They make things a lot harder for actual victims, and give the folks who go "hurr hurr it's a 50% chance she's lying" a leg to stand on.  And honestly, I imagine that many of these people ARE folks who are just trying to get money or whatever.  They're evil criminals.  But some of them, maybe a small number, I think are just kind of fucked up.

But Max, how does him not realising she was no longer consenting make it not-rape? Like I said above, according to what we've been told, rape happened. Him not understanding that the situation had then doesn't change what she was experiencing at the time. We could be arguing about whether or not him not having the full picture makes it "his fault", but you must realise that this is a separate question from "was it rape?". Hence the why I said that "is he a rapist in every sense of the word?" might be a more fitting question above.

Rape is sex you do not consent to, not sex you do not enjoy. Currently all given evidence beyond speculation is that she consented.

And it is very important that we keep to this definition, otherwise "She enjoyed it!" is an actual argument, and that is morally grotesque.

She says she changed her mind in the middle.  No one is talking about enjoyment.  I'm not exactly sure why you're making this argument.